Questions I lose sleep over

[SneakyThunderCat]

So I've been reloading with Norma brass, and I'm on my 6th reload of my current batch of cases. The last few rounds I've loaded up I've been able to push or pull the bullet with my fingers, but only some of them, not all. Any explanation what could be going on? I just annealed them all and I'm getting the correct amount of neck tension. Just curious what you guys might think?

I can't find Norma brass anywhere, and I refuse to rework the load with a different brand of brass, so I'm planning on buying factory rounds that use Norma brass and pulling the bullets. My question is weather or not there will be a noticable difference in accuracy with virgin brass, vs brass that's been loaded a handful of times?

Also, what are your takes on mixing virgin or once fired brass, with brass that's been fired a # of times.

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[packer58]

Are you annealing before or after sizing....

 

[SneakyThunderCat]

Are you annealing before or after sizing....

Before

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[nhyrum]

Maybe the necks have thinned out from firing/sizing/trimming. Do you know how much neck tension you're supposed to have?

Do you use a bushing die? Is the bushing the right size? Go around and actually check EVERYTHING, with your setup.


Tl;Dr I know it sounds silly. But actually check everything

Less than a week ago I had a slap in the face moment, but not with reloading. I've been fixing up this Lexus for my brother. When I got it, it had a few very bad misfires. Not knocks, or anything, just missed. I notice and if the wires that went from the coil to the distributor cap had gotten pinched by one of the hundreds of beauty covers the thing has. Replaced the wire set. Things got better, but not running right. Later down the line I replaced the cap and rotor, plugs, even the computer. Nothing fixed it. But all were bad. My dad has a friend that a Lexus dealer mechanic. We had him come over, this is now after 2 months of fighting this stupid thing), and he asked if the wires were on right. I said yes. The new wires I got were numbered. The distributor caps (the car had 2) were numbered. Duh they're on right. While I'm not a trained mechanic, I'm rather mechanical inclined, and has been working on cars a long time. He said, did you check? So I'm sure I rolled my eyes, and went to actually, physically, check. Apparently the last time I put the plug wires on, two of the three cylinders misfiring I had gotten the wires crossed (1,2, and 7 were missing, 1 and 7 were crossed) they plugged right in next to each other. This was all before he even turned the key on. I fix the wires, she fires up, and running smooth as a button.

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[packer58]

If your using a bushing die without a mandrel for your neck sizing i would say your necks are getting thin and the brass will soon be unusable. Take a piece of brass and measure neck wall thickness with your ball mic, that will tell you a lot...

 

[nhyrum]

Also, how did you anneal them? Did you use a temperature indicating paint?

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[SneakyThunderCat]

I use a FL bushing die, and am getting .002" neck tension.

I anneal them with a small propane torch. There's not much precision there, I rotate them under the flame until I feel the case get warm/hot in my fingers and then drop them in cold water.

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[nhyrum]

I use a FL die. And I anneal them with a small propane torch. There's not much precision there, I rotate them under the flame until I feel the case get warm/hot in my fingers and then drop them in cold water.

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Yeah, you could have ruined your brass. There actually is a bit of precision to annealing. Too hot and it completely destroys the structure, and if you don't want the walls of the case getting annealed either. Chances are, if this is the first loading after annealing, the brass was ruined

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[nhyrum]

I use a propane torch and a socket. I'll paint a stripe inside the neck of a few with the tempilaq, and set a metronome to get a tempo, basically count the tics. Then I just go. It doesn't need to be high tech, but it does need to just anneal that part of the case that needs it, and consistently actually physically anneal them. Annealing is a physical process that is temperature and time dependant

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[packer58]

Pull your expander button stem out of your die and measure the button, then remeasure the OD of your bullet........If you write both numbers down and do the math that will give you your neck tension. With thinning necks your die will squeeze down the neck but there's not enough material / thickness for the expander button to size the neck ID on the down stroke.

 

[nhyrum]

If the brass is over annealed, you might be able to get a bushing a few thou smaller. Size a case and measure the od and compare it to what it should be based off the bushing. Then get the bushing you need, and after a while you could go back to the correct one.

I guess that only works if you already have a bushing die

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[Low_Sky]

1. I wouldn’t count on buying Norma factory ammo and having the brass be interchangeable with what you already have. I’ve gone down this road, and have got widely varying weight between component brass and factory ammo brass, meaning different case capacities. Work carefully with the factory brass if it’s heavier than your component brass; the case capacity will be less.

2. Re: annealing.... so you may be annealing, maybe not. Finger warmth isn’t a precise measure. Some Tempilaq will tell you if this step is doing anything good.

3. Moving the bullet in or out with your fingers doesn’t sound like .002” of neck tension. Either your brass is thinning, or you’re getting split necks. Running a dental pick or other sharp tool around the inside of the neck will help you feel any splits that are too small to see.
I would lean toward split necks if you’re on the sixth firing and your annealing process may not actually be annealing.


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[rayporter]

there aint nothing like new brass [and it only new once]

 

[SneakyThunderCat]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll check into some of these suggestions. I'm still pretty new to the whole reloading game so I really do appreciate the help!

 

[nhyrum]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll check into some of these suggestions. I'm still pretty new to the whole reloading game so I really do appreciate the help!

The key to the game is consistency in everything. Using annealing as an example, the more consistent and exact you can get the brass to the annealing temperature, and for the correct time, every time, the better results you'll get.

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[Roksliding]

Gotta be a neck tension thing right? Your probably not using a smaller caliber bullet suddenly, and the bushing hasn’t changed so it has to be the neck thickness I’d say... just talking out loud..

Bushing constricts outside of neck
Bullet pushes from inside and those two things didn’t change, so it has to be the neck thickness..

as far as annealing, I’m not a metaloligist and didn’t get a doctrine in metallurgy from the university of metal, but I have the internet so I’m pretty much an expert. And I don’t think that annealing is the issue (weather your doing it wrong or not who cares) because annealing is a heat treatment to help brass retain its malleability... yeah heat expands metals but your sizing after.


maybe try to measure a neck diameter before and after sizing, see if your brass is springing back to much. Seems like I get .002 +/- spring back with my brass vs bushing if that looks good it has to be a neck thickness thing. Are you firing a super hot load and trimming a ton?? Even that though, at 6 reloads seems like a reach..

Just great, now I’m not gonna be able to sleep.....