problems with rucking

[Chirogrow]

I'm curious about spinal injuries with heaving packs and hiking specifically in the spine. I have been unable to find any legitimate research about how the spinal discs respond to heavy loads over time and I'm hoping someone here has some solid answers. I know about wolffs law and how good carrying a heavy load can be for bone density and how eccentric loads help with muscle loads and tendonopathy so I see a lot of good. I'm not sure though how the heavy loads impact the disc. I'm preparing for a moose hunt in september, I do one heavy hike a week ranging from 100-150 pounds for 3 miles on a well maintained trail. 2-3 time a week I do a combination of stability work for my knees, ankles and hips along with other leg work outs. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this!

 

[Coach Chris]

There's not a lot of research on carrying a heavy pack and effects on the spine.
As you probably discovered.
Mostly what you find are warnings of uneven loads and spinal alignment/deformation.

What "stability work" are you doing?

 

[rickyw]

Discs typically are injured with repeated bouts of flexion cycles combined with loaded compression, which causes delamination of the annular fibers of the disc and eventual herniation. A heavy ruck is mainly just compression and if you are starting with a healthy back and building gradually, will likely be tolerable. A week in between is a good window for full recovery of connective tissues and bone. A ruck is essentially a loaded carry and strongmen do the yoke walk with hundreds of pounds, albeit to shorter distances. Build gradually and listen to your body. I would make the heavy ruck your primary spinal loading exercise and lay off heavy squats and deadlifts until the season is over. Just my two cents

 

[mountainman406]

Having dealt with ruptured disks from the military, everything that I have been told points towards a mixture of rucking and core work for stability. A lot of people miss the importance of having a strong core for spine stabilization because they primarily focus on cardio/legs to prepare for hunting seasons. I don't know the exact science behind it so hopefully someone else can chime in...

 

[TaperPin]

I would suggest looking at different professions and why people quit. With age you’ll meet more and more guys that change physically demanding jobs or hobbies and sometimes it’s an advancement, but usually their body gave out one way or another. Young disks are simply not the same as old disks.

My brother in law is big tough and prided himself in carrying more weight and out working the younger guys on his small concrete company. He stepped in one shallow hole with a 90 lb bag of cement on his shoulder and he’s been on disability ever since with a big collection of no disks, crappy disks, and crappier disks - age and weight are not a problem, until they are.

I’d worry more about wearing out your joints, since most of your weight is being carried on the hip belt, or should be. Many professions that pride themselves in being tough, in good shape, and lifting heavy weights have the majority of people washing out because of joint issues - once they are worn out and you’re nearly bone on bone, the days of carrying any weight are done without a joint replacement. I know a 35 year old that wore his hips out with heavy work outs - there’s plenty of case studies.

Our oldest has always been the toughest, most in shape person in his unit, or gym, and it’s such a part of his identity he can’t slow down - his back and joints are reaching their limits and at less than 40 years old he walks around like a 70 year old.

I get it. I would still be doing too much if I could - luckily I got my head straight before completely blowing out the last cartilage.

 

[Coach Chris]

Having dealt with ruptured disks from the military, everything that I have been told points towards a mixture of rucking and core work for stability. A lot of people miss the importance of having a strong core for spine stabilization because they primarily focus on cardio/legs to prepare for hunting seasons. I don't know the exact science behind it so hopefully someone else can chime in...

Good article

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S136085920900093X

 

[Shootinsurveyor]

That's a pretty heavy load, I would think as long as you worked up to that weight, should be fine. have read a lot of stories about guys crushing themselves with a heavy pack and not being able to do well their next season. I'm of the mind that there is no free lunch so put out the most work with the least damage to your body. Probably varies from person to person.

 

[Chirogrow]

There's not a lot of research on carrying a heavy pack and effects on the spine.
As you probably discovered.
Mostly what you find are warnings of uneven loads and spinal alignment/deformation.

What "stability work" are you doing?

A lot of work with barefoot with balance boards, boss ball and one leg at a time trying to focus on intrinsic muscle fibers. I spend time standing on one leg like a single leg rdl then rotating my spine left and right to create instability. I found a lot of thoughts on rucking but I was looking for double blind research. I mostly found pros and cons of rucking. I have not had any back pain while rucking but I've been doing this for the past 8 years and now that I'm 40 I just started wondering how it may impact me in years to come.

 

[Chirogrow]

Discs typically are injured with repeated bouts of flexion cycles combined with loaded compression, which causes delamination of the annular fibers of the disc and eventual herniation. A heavy ruck is mainly just compression and if you are starting with a healthy back and building gradually, will likely be tolerable. A week in between is a good window for full recovery of connective tissues and bone. A ruck is essentially a loaded carry and strongmen do the yoke walk with hundreds of pounds, albeit to shorter distances. Build gradually and listen to your body. I would make the heavy ruck your primary spinal loading exercise and lay off heavy squats and deadlifts until the season is over. Just my two cents

I love the break down you gave! once I hit over 120 I have a slight flexion lean and I always use trekking poles to help with balance but because I do have some flexion I could see it irritating the disc but I could also see an application where the tissue gets strong like we see with eccentric loads on tendons but the tissues are different and I am unsure how annular fibers and the nucleus pulposes respond. may I ask what your background is? I am a chiropractor with a sports med background, I don't hear many people use terms like annular fibers, delamination and flexion cycles! ha

 

[Poser]

You're going to have a difficult time finding data on rucking specifically, however, there is a metric. ton of available data on strength trainees. The body does have a method of recovery from axial loading and is quite tolerable and resilient of heavy loads.

For example, if you look at the data on deadlift injuries, there are remarkably few serious injuries with weight below 600 lbs for male trainees. The data seems to suggest that most males are *capable* of achieving a 600 lbs deadlift *with proper training*. The injuries associated with sub 600 lbs deadlifts tend to be tweaks etc -relatively minor and short term injuries. However, above 600 lbs, its a different game and that's where you start to see more significant injuries.

What you want to generally avoid are big jumps in axial loading. A 600 lbs deadlift is achieved 10 and 5 lbs at a time. Incremental increases over a place of time. A 200 lbs deadlifter attempting 385 lbs is going to prone to injury.

What you're going to get into with rucking that is a variable that many of the ex-military guys can speak to is how much time are we talking about under these extremely heavy loads. For most people, once you get north of around 80-85 lbs, that's going to constitute "extremely heavy", with 150-200 lbs being the upper limit of what most people can reasonably handle for any length of time and distance. With that in mind, I think you have to be aware of volume of time you are spending under these types of loads. Some times it is necessary for hunting, but I for one have not had any experience that leads me to believe that you need to actually train with loads in this "extremely heavy" range. If you build your strength in a more logical and efficient manner and you have the muscular endurance to carry "moderately heavy" loads, then you can tolerate those extremely heavy loads when the situation calls for it.

 

[LongWayAround]

You might consider adding in hanging leg raises to decompress the spine.

Not super easy to do on/after the trail but it's something I work in when at the gym squatting.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Well I spent 5 months in Ranger school carrying rucks that averaged 70-110 lbs daily… I don’t think it was great for my back. That was 10 years ago no formal diagnosis but it seems I tweak my back more often than I did, I have a pretty physically demanding job and try to workout a lot to excel/ cope with said job. I think there are much better things to do than just carrying stupid heavy weight on your back

 

[Chirogrow]

Well I spent 5 months in Ranger school carrying rucks that averaged 70-110 lbs daily… I don’t think it was great for my back. That was 10 years ago no formal diagnosis but it seems I tweak my back more often than I did, I have a pretty physically demanding job and try to workout a lot to excel/ cope with said job. I think there are much better things to do than just carrying stupid heavy weight on your back

Thank you for your service! I do agree that there are better things to do than carry stupid heavy weight but I love the work out for one and 2 I am hoping to get a moose this year and I think for me I just want to know what that may feel like to get my mind around the weight.

 

[Hnthrdr]

For sure. I would suggest moderate weight, in varied terrain, like 30-50lbs but hike up a mountain or steep hills if you have them. I always wanted to have strong legs and core and flexibility. I have never purposely trained with more than 40lbs (post army of course) yet have had no issues packing 110lbs of mule deer or elk off the mountain. I tend to try and keep my pack weight around 70-80, but sometimes you have to make a push and don’t want two trips. Also use trekking poles, they are awesome and help a lot

 

[mtwarden]

I'm preparing for a moose hunt in september, I do one heavy hike a week ranging from 100-150 pounds for 3 miles on a well maintained trail. 2-3 time a week I do a combination of stability work for my knees, ankles and hips along with other leg work outs. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this!

I'd consider adding a day or two of weighted hikes (vs just one) BUT lower the weight to 70-80 lbs. 100-150# isn't necessary imo, especially considering the increase risk of injury.

I never train with more than 75# and have never thought when packing meat— I wish I had trained with heavier weight.

 

[LongWayAround]

@Chirogrow what are you using for a pack and what are you carrying to get 150lb on there?

Lately, I have been using a sack of quikcrete and end up with total pack weight around 90lb. I also have a 50lb sandbag that I use more frequently. I don't think I would want to haul them simultaneously though.

With the heavier weight, my focus is on getting through the workout. With the lighter weight, I focus on pushing harder.

 

[COJoe]

I'd consider adding a day or two of weighted hikes (vs just one) BUT lower the weight to 70-80 lbs. 100-150# isn't necessary imo, especially considering the increase risk of injury.

I never train with more than 75# and have never thought when packing meat— I wish I had trained with heavier weight.

Good advice mtwarden, I think about your past post on this subject when I do my training hikes. Next month I'm moving from 60 #s to 70#s which I'll stay at until October. I do need more than my current once a week hike though. Maybe a couple hikes with 100#s to see how I do.

For twenty years I have heard from my chiropractors that I need to strengthen my core but I never took it seriously. Now, two back surgeries in eight years later, I finally started serious core training since January and have never felt so good and stable in every aspect of my life. I would highly recommend anyone planning on backpack hunts to focus on your core more than trying to carry maximum weight every week. Stay healthy you all and enjoy your hunts this fall.

 

[The_Jim]

I’ll second that your training to little with too much weight. Add distance and reduce weight. It’s really not much different from lifting weights, if you use inappropriate weights and form you risk injury. It’s almost impossible to get injured with perfect form and I would guess you could be developing bad movement patterns at those weights.

 

[IBen]

I'm curious about spinal injuries with heaving packs and hiking specifically in the spine. I have been unable to find any legitimate research about how the spinal discs respond to heavy loads over time and I'm hoping someone here has some solid answers. I know about wolffs law and how good carrying a heavy load can be for bone density and how eccentric loads help with muscle loads and tendonopathy so I see a lot of good. I'm not sure though how the heavy loads impact the disc. I'm preparing for a moose hunt in september, I do one heavy hike a week ranging from 100-150 pounds for 3 miles on a well maintained trail. 2-3 time a week I do a combination of stability work for my knees, ankles and hips along with other leg work outs. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this!

The hardest part of packing moose will be the lack of a trail let alone a well maintained one not the weight. 100 lbs is way too much imo I dont really go over 60lbs training and i get the pleasure of packing multiple moose per year. The only part thats over 100 lbs is the rear quarters and i don't think they're that much over. I agree with mtwarden more miles less weight. Doing two smaller hikes on back to back days will get you more ready than one big hike a week apart

 

[IBen]

The other aspect i see a lot of people miss out on is not training at an off trail hunt specific pace. Like on a trail you can bust out 3.5 mph but you wont see those numbers off trail. When you are hiking off trail you are going slower and there is more “time under tension” with each step and a lot of clients i have don’t know how to hike slow so they do the 5 minute sweat fest with 1 minute break and repeat while I am hiking at conversational pace without stoping and covering much more ground. I think this is because in their training they are going too fast.