Probably overkill, but... what about this pulley system for drop hunt?

AKDoc said:
Look at what I shared in #22 above...

I really could have accomplished moving that bull by myself with that set-up. My friend was there, and he is a super great guy, but he really wasn't that helpful with the actual pulling. The z-drag set-up that I put together and used is 3:1, and with two more pulleys, two more carabiners, and one (or two) more Prusik knotted loop it can be 6:1.

If you haven't already done so, just do a little research on z-drags (and compound z-drags), and learn how to tie Prusiks. It's all very doable at a fairly reasonable weight...and probably even save you some money.
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Thanks, Doc.
I know how to tie a Prusiks so at least that part won't be foreign to me. I'll let you know if I have other questions.
 
I honestly don't think there's a pre-rigged device which will cover even 50% of the possible situations you could encounter. The real strategy is to learn some basic rigging and then do some practice. From there you can get a bit more advanced. I wouldn't go and spend money on actual real pulling gear just yet. Invest a little in practice gear (cheap pulleys and cord) and use this to learn. Later you can make your own informed buying decisions and know what you're doing with it.

A single pulley is 0 reduction. You have to exert 100 pounds to pull 100 pounds. 2:1 will reduce it 50% to 50 pounds. 3:1 = 25 pounds and 4:1 = 12.5 pounds of force to move 100 pounds. Sounds good until you think about moving a 1500 pound big bull up a bank, with friction added in. With a 4:1 (4 pulley system rigged in line) you'll have to input 187 pounds to lift 1500 pounds. I don't know what actual weight resistance a 1500 pound bull has laying dead in a creek, trench or hole....but you know it's a lot.
 
Kevin Dill said:
I honestly don't think there's a pre-rigged device which will cover even 50% of the possible situations you could encounter. The real strategy is to learn some basic rigging and then do some practice. From there you can get a bit more advanced. I wouldn't go and spend money on actual real pulling gear just yet. Invest a little in practice gear (cheap pulleys and cord) and use this to learn. Later you can make your own informed buying decisions and know what you're doing with it.

A single pulley is 0 reduction. You have to exert 100 pounds to pull 100 pounds. 2:1 will reduce it 50% to 50 pounds. 3:1 = 25 pounds and 4:1 = 12.5 pounds of force to move 100 pounds. Sounds good until you think about moving a 1500 pound big bull up a bank, with friction added in. With a 4:1 (4 pulley system rigged in line) you'll have to input 187 pounds to lift 1500 pounds. I don't know what actual weight resistance a 1500 pound bull has laying dead in a creek, trench or hole....but you know it's a lot.
Click to expand...
After watching a half dozen or so YouTube videos today I got some good ideas on how to start practicing a few things. As you suggest, I’m starting with equipment I have laying around. Plan to make the purchases after I have a better idea of what I think will work best.
Question for those of you who have used a Z-drag: Can a person get by with using just carabiners and no pulleys or is there too much friction that way?
 
tdot said:
What do you want to lift? Moose in the air? Drag it out of the water? Or just secure a leg, head etc.?

And then, the all import part... what's your budget for this? There are some pretty high tech options in the sailing world right now, dyneema is revolutionizing sailboats right now, its made it alot of fun to work on the rigging of boats.

The Harken pulleys are older tech, there are lighter alternatives out there now.

Check out Colligo Marine and upffront.com

They will both give you a few more options.

For what it's worth. I built a cascade system out of 2mm Dyneema, some specific carabiners, some spliced connections and I was able to use it to lift a 200lb Mule deer off the ground by myself, quite easily, total weight was under 2 ounces
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I’d be interested in the parts list for this system!
 
AKdoc said: lift the NRS straps that secured the bull to the cordage
I'm not following this part. You secured the bull to the cordage with the NRS straps? How? I guess the "how" will answer my next Q, of how lifting up on them reduced the drag.
 
Voyageur said:
After watching a half dozen or so YouTube videos today I got some good ideas on how to start practicing a few things. As you suggest, I’m starting with equipment I have laying around. Plan to make the purchases after I have a better idea of what I think will work best.
Question for those of you who have used a Z-drag: Can a person get by with using just carabiners and no pulleys or is there too much friction that way?
Click to expand...

You can certainly get away with just carabiners, however it is very inefficient. It only really works with pure dyneema (without a cover) that is smaller in diameter then the carabiner, and carabiners that have an appropriate cross section for the rope to run across. Even with that you are somewhere in the neighborhood of losing 1/3 of your effort to friction. I have built systems like that (as detailed above) but I wouldn't use it in a high load system. I probably wouldnt want to exceed a few hundred pounds on a system like that.
 
Good morning Herbie...let me try to explain that better...

First, let me clarify that the only reason we were using NRS straps is because the distance from the lone mature spruce (the only anchor available) and the shore-line edge was greater than the length of 8mm cordage that I had with me. I had just enough NRS straps (4 or 5) to secure to the bull, and then link straps together to reach the 8mm for a tie-off with a cinch knot (multiple turn). Getting him out of the lake and up over the shoreline edge was definitely the hardest part, and it required a series of progressive pulls with the z-drag and multiple strapping adjustments to eventually get him completely out of the water, and laying right at the shoreline edge. The NRS straps were actually very helpful with all the adjustments we had to make, and I'll use them again...but I'm really hoping to never have to do that again!

Now to your next question, at shoreline edge it was still pretty wet and mushy ground, so I wanted to give it a try to see if we could get him pulled a bit further from the lake for butchering. At that point I removed his head, and we used the straps to secure the front legs and the rear legs, and then linked them together and linked straps to the tie-off. We'd pull until we could pull no further with the z-drag, which was very minimal to no movement, not much at all. The 8mm cordage I had with me was supposed to be static, but it actually had some slight dynamic properties. Therefore, when we max'ed out our pull with the z-drag, the Prusik knots held the cordage tight, retaining the dynamic tension of the pull. We then discovered that when we grabbed the straps and each lifted the front and rear bundled legs up (as best we could) while pulling the straps, the retained dynamic tension in the cordage held by the z-drag all combined to pull the bull a bit further. I'm assuming that the lift reduced the bull's total surface contact with the ground (source of friction), and that slight reduction in surface contact while we also pulled the straps was just enough to allow the held dynamic tension in the cordage by the z-drag to advance the pull further until tension was expended. We repeated that sequence many times, and moved him a good 10-15 feet to dry ground.

I know it sounds pretty wild, but it happened. I'm not an engineer, so my hypothesis could be wrong.
 
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Lightweight is tough for moving a whole moose. I agree with AKDoc, Z-Drags (3:1) are probably the way to go. The nice thing if the load is too heavy, it's easy to make it 4:1 with the same equipment if you know how to tie a couple different knots and rig it. Having enough rope is the hard part. If you're just hanging the quarters, then maybe some Harkens would work? I've used them to hang elk quarters and whole whitetail deer using a system similar to tdot.

I carry this in a small ditty bag for a Z-Drag or similar: (I'll try to get some pictures for the thread.)
30' of 8mm rope
6mm prusiks (x3),
Black Diamond screwgate carabiners (x2)
MSM Mini Mod D carabiners (x3)
x2 SMC & x1 GM pulleys
15' of 1" tubular webbing and some scraps of mule tape

For a lightweight load I use Double Harkens (one with a becket) and some lightweight cordage.

I will definitely start carrying some NRS type straps as well!
 
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AKDoc said:
Good morning Herbie...let me try to explain that better...

First, let me clarify that the only reason we were using NRS straps is because the distance from the lone mature spruce (the only anchor available) and the shore-line edge was greater than the length of 8mm cordage that I had with me. I had just enough NRS straps (4 or 5) to secure to the bull, and then link straps together to reach the 8mm for a tie-off with a cinch knot (multiple turn). Getting him out of the lake and up over the shoreline edge was definitely the hardest part, and it required a series of progressive pulls with the z-drag and multiple strapping adjustments to eventually get him completely out of the water, and laying right at the shoreline edge. The NRS straps were actually very helpful with all the adjustments we had to make, and I'll use them again...but I'm really hoping to never have to do that again!

Now to your next question, at shoreline edge it was still pretty wet and mushy ground, so I wanted to give it a try to see if we could get him pulled a bit further from the lake for butchering. At that point I removed his head, and we used the straps to secure the front legs and the rear legs, and then linked them together and linked straps to the tie-off. We'd pull until we could pull no further with the z-drag, which was very minimal to no movement, not much at all. The 8mm cordage I had with me was supposed to be static, but it actually had some slight dynamic properties. Therefore, when we max'ed out our pull with the z-drag, the Prusik knots held the cordage tight, retaining the dynamic tension of the pull. We then discovered that when we grabbed the straps and each lifted the front and rear bundled legs up (as best we could) while pulling the straps, the retained dynamic tension in the cordage held by the z-drag all combined to pull the bull a bit further. I'm assuming that the lift reduced the bull's total surface contact with the ground (source of friction), and that slight reduction in surface contact while we also pulled the straps was just enough to allow the held dynamic tension in the cordage by the z-drag to advance the pull further until tension was expended. We repeated that sequence many times, and moved him a good 10-15 feet to dry ground.

I know it sounds pretty wild, but it happened. I'm not an engineer, so my hypothesis could be wrong.
Click to expand...

Even static ropes will have stretch. Poly based ropes are somewhere in the range of 15% stretch at the working load of the rope. I've seen some advanced ropes that can push this down to between 8 and 10%. But that is still at working load, which depending on the manufacturer and their rating system, is usually between 1/3 and 1/5 the break load rating of that line.

It is one of the huge benefits of using a Dyneema based line in systems like this. It has something like 2% stretch, at the full break load rating of the line.

A couple other benefits are that you can run a smaller diameter line, which is lighter and will be more efficient (less friction) in the same sized pulley.


Something else that you can try in a situation like that where you've maxed out the mechanical advantage of the pulleys. Tie off the working end of the line and pull up on the center of the pulley system. This is referred to as "springing" the line. It puts an amazing amount of force on the line. I've moved a car sideways with this method on a snowy road). A safer option is to use something as a lever in the center of the line, it keeps you away from stuff if it breaks.. Make sure the whole system can take the new loads introduced. Or sh!t will break.
 
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