Point Creep - is there any light at the end of the tunnel?

[5MilesBack]

I think everyone should at least have some chance of drawing a tag. If you wanna throw your draw opportunity away on the hardest to draw/most prestigious unit in a state each year, you should have a chance to do that.

CO has done that with their hybrid draw for all their highest point tags in the state, but apparently that's still not good enough for some folks. When you're dealing with less than 10 tags for some of these hunts, people just need to understand the math involved there. Yes, someone somewhere always seems to win the Powerball, but the odds aren't all that much better for getting some of these tags, and would be even worse odds if they went to a totally random lottery draw.

So in that case you'd have a state where you can still predictably draw tags on a routine basis using the point system........going to a system that many seem as better, where they could go a lifetime and never get another tag in that state. That does sound better.

 

[CorbLand]

It’s not ignored it’s just popular the supply and demand of it is out of control right now only way to fix that is for people to stop applying. I’m
Going to continue on with my plan it’s working for me we draw tags every year with the way it’s structured. Might not ever break 400” but I’ll have a good season every season


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Then why is it when most people that want point systems respond they always include their comment with something to the effect of "glory tag", "trophy unit" or some reference to big animals? You literally did it in your comment back to me.

I am not holding out for the big units in my home state. I literally applied for one of the worst units, both elk numbers and size, and it saw a point creep of 4 points in 5 years.

 

[5MilesBack]

That's what new hunters can look forward to, simply a slight chance to draw.

With random lottery systems.......yes, that's what they have to look forward to. At least with a points system, they can figure out when they might draw based on whatever tags they put in for.

 

[cgasner1]

Then why is it when most people that want point systems respond they always include their comment with something to the effect of "glory tag", "trophy unit" or some reference to big animals? You literally did it in your comment back to me.

I am not holding out for the big units in my home state. I literally applied for one of the worst units, both elk numbers and size, and it saw a point creep of 4 points in 5 years.

If you like I can pm you the 4 states you can still get a elk tag in 3 of which still have bull tags available


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[CorbLand]

If you like I can pm you the 4 states you can still get a elk tag in 3 of which still have bull tags available


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I know which states I can get tags in. Unfortunately, my current financial situation doesn't really afford me the ability to hunt out of state. If you notice all of my comments refer back to my home state.

 

[5MilesBack]

How "fair" is it that a 30 year old guy with no point will never have a chance, ever, to draw a NW CO tag.

How fair is it that 99.999% of the population will never draw one of those tags either, but some individual thinks they're special enough that they SHOULD draw that tag??????

 

[realunlucky]

And we shouldn't have to suffer from the incessant selfish crying of the "entitlement" generation that thinks they deserve a shot at hunting the very top units in every state that 99.99% of the population will never get to hunt either.

They should stop focusing on what they CAN'T get, and focus on what they CAN get.......just like us "boomers" do. They don't want equality, they want equity.......in something they have never put in the time or effort for, but somehow think they deserve the rewards for that anyway.

I see the exact opposite. It's the boomers trying to lock everyone else out until they get theirs.



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[HUNT JR]

With random lottery systems.......yes, that's what they have to look forward to. At least with a points system, they can figure out when they might draw based on whatever tags they put in for.

That is not entirely true in most states that aren't pure preference. In WA we have an average number of points it took to draw a tag. Typically 10-13 for most bull elk tags with a rifle. Those are horrible indicators of drawing. I drew last year with 16 points and my rough draw odds were still 1% or so. The odds will only get worse as more and more points are accumulated to dilute the system.

 

[CorbLand]

I still fail to see how it is selfish or entitled to say. I am willing to give up the chance of ever drawing a tag to have an increased probability of drawing the tag but its not entiltled or selfish to say I want a guarantee at some point of drawing a tag.

 

[realunlucky]

How fair is it that 99.999% of the population will never draw one of those tags either, but some individual thinks they're special enough that they SHOULD draw that tag??????

Your using the exact same argument-- I've waited the the longest I SHOULD draw the tag. Guess it's just logical to think they are the most special person.

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[String&stick]

Wow. . . What a read.

You want more opportunities? Here is a formula.

Get all your friends and their friends and their friends to get behind a movement. The movement needs to be to decrease public land grazing and increase elk herd numbers (mule deer, sheep, goats, etc) so we can increase oppotunity. You're going to need some cash though because you'll be fighting grazing organizations, farm bureaus, and most state representatives with an R beside their name,as well asanti hunting organizations, and most residents of Denver. . .

You're also going to need a new tax (backpack tax, tent tax, sales tax whatever) to allocate funds to help the farmers and ranchers you're fighting against to fund better fencing and provide restitution for damages.

In doing this you may have to do some unthinkable things. . . For instance you may decide to vote for someone with a D beside their name because they line up better with your mission to get more game on the landscape. You might also have to hold hands with organizations that don't explicitly support hunting and some that even oppose it, if they are willing to support the movement to increase herd numbers and public access.

So in short, you need a movement that works against much of the current western establishment that has a seat at the table (Hard R republicans many of whom are wealthy land owners) and pushes for more public goods (wildlife). Now some republicans and democrats will support you and some Dems and republicans will fight you, so you will need to actually vet candidates and vote for those that support the mission regardless of their political affiliation.

You will have to deal with some very complex issues, like the small rancher who's hay gets wiped out, and the outfitters that haze elk onto private land, only to have the land owner complain that there are too many animals and their population needs reduced.

Oh and I almost forgot, if you don't 100% align with every sportsman on every decision and make a public statement on all issues, 1/2 of them will wail and Nash their teeth about how you are a green decoy!

Now that you have the lay of the land and a solid (although rambling and somewhat incoherent) plan, I send you forth to do this in every Western state! Godspeed my friend godspeed.

P.s. don't forget to create more access to landlocked public lands and promote corner hopping as legal!

While I wait for you to accomplish this feat across the west ushering in random draws where everyone gets a good tag every few years and a great one once every 5-10. . . I'll be buying my points and using them. It's not that I don't trust that you will come through and succeed, I'm just the type of guy that hedges my bets and lays off risk where I can!

Happy hunting everyone! Screw those of you that have more points than me. . . And screw those of you with less!

 

[5MilesBack]

So you deserve a shot but they don't and they are the entitled ones? Got it.

They have the exact same shot as I do. There's no entitlement other than who has the most points for whatever unit they're applying for. They have every opportunity to get a point every year and apply for tags........just as I do, and just as everyone else does. That's equality. Equity is expecting or demanding to be on the same level of points as someone else even though they've never even applied for points.

 

[5MilesBack]

I am not holding out for the big units in my home state. I literally applied for one of the worst units, both elk numbers and size, and it saw a point creep of 4 points in 5 years.

Exactly.........and why? Because of the demand that is out there for tags these days. That's pretty simple. It's like when housing shoots through the roof and you have folks saying "gee, why do these people that have been around for decades making money have an advantage over me that just entered the workforce.......I want the opportunity to buy that million dollar home for $50k too".

 

[5MilesBack]

I see the exact opposite. It's the boomers trying to lock everyone else out until they get theirs.

Boomers are in two categories........those that have been waiting to draw a specific tag for years and possibly even decades so they continue to collect points and may never draw that tag.........and those that collect points and use them every few years. How do either of those "lock out" everyone else?

 

[NoWiser]

They have the exact same shot as I do. There's no entitlement other than who has the most points for whatever unit they're applying for. They have every opportunity to get a point every year and apply for tags........just as I do, and just as everyone else does. That's equality. Equity is expecting or demanding to be on the same level of points as someone else even though they've never even applied for points.

How is there equality when those who got in on the ground floor of a point system have a shot at drawing a tag every single year for 20-30 years until they are guaranteed that tag, while a kid just starting may not even be in the drawing until they are 40-50 years old? How is there equality when a kid who grows up in a hunting family has a parent that starts buying them points when they are 10 years old vs someone who starts hunting in their 20's and they buy their first point the same year? That 20 year old will be dead before they even have a shot in the max point pool because of the slug of younger hunters with more points than him. I'm not seeing the equality there.

 

[realunlucky]

Exactly.........and why? Because of the demand that is out there for tags these days. That's pretty simple. It's like when housing shoots through the roof and you have folks saying "gee, why do these people that have been around for decades making money have an advantage over me that just entered the workforce.......I want the opportunity to buy that million dollar home for $50k too".

Nope not even close. If you can only buy a house because your fifty but can never buy a house because your only twenty not even have an opportunity when after waiting until you turn fifty. Then that would fit the narrative.

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[5MilesBack]

Your using the exact same argument-- I've waited the the longest I SHOULD draw the tag. Guess it's just logical to think they are the most special person.

Hunting is a privilege. But absolutely......if they've waited 25 years for that tag and get it......then congratulations. That's a heck of a lot of time to wait for a tag. That's not for me, but good for them. They join the .0001% (or even less) crowd. So I would say that yes, they are more deserved than the 12 year old that didn't even know that unit existed until today.

 

[CorbLand]

Exactly.........and why? Because of the demand that is out there for tags these days. That's pretty simple. It's like when housing shoots through the roof and you have folks saying "gee, why do these people that have been around for decades making money have an advantage over me that just entered the workforce.......I want the opportunity to buy that million dollar home for $50k too".

Except everything is equal in the housing market. You and I can both put in an offer on the same house and we have a 50/50 chance of getting it. There isnt an artificial system set up that says you have put in 10 offers therefore you get the next house that becomes available. There is a difference between natural flowing markets and artificial system set up in a market.

****, I wish there was a point system for housing. I could use that right now.

 

[realunlucky]

Boomers are in two categories........those that have been waiting to draw a specific tag for years and possibly even decades so they continue to collect points and may never draw that tag.........and those that collect points and use them every few years. How do either of those "lock out" everyone else?

Everyone fits in those two categories.

I'm taking in general, those most vested make the most noise to either keep the current system in place-- gosh it's unfair to change now or push for change that only benefits those with the most points. Example Utah 50/50 rule clarification or North Dakota moving to a squared points.

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[5MilesBack]

How is there equality when those who got in on the ground floor of a point system have a shot at drawing a tag every single year for 20-30 years until they are guaranteed that tag, while a kid just starting may not even be in the drawing until they are 40-50 years old? How is there equality when a kid who grows up in a hunting family has a parent that starts buying them points when they are 10 years old vs someone who starts hunting in their 20's and they buy their first point the same year? That 20 year old will be dead before they even have a shot in the max point pool because of the slug of younger hunters with more points than him. I'm not seeing the equality there.

That's like saying "why doesn't that unborn child from 20 years from now have the same chance at things that I have now?" Seriously? I'm sure all those that came up with the point systems were thinking that same thing back then too. I'm just amazed at everyone that seems to think that every single thing in life has to be equally fair for every person now living and those also that might be born in the future. "Gee......why were you born before me.....that's not fair." "head slap"