Point Creep - is there any light at the end of the tunnel?

[CorbLand]

I am not going to argue that one is more fair than the other. Never have I ever argued that. Someone will lose and someone will win. That is a fact.

You can call those that are not advocates for point system whiners, or selfish, or whatever you want. It doesn't make it true. Just because I look at something and say hey, this is failing we should change it, doesn't mean I am whining. ****, the guys that founded the US were probably called whiners when they said, hey something needs to change.

I want a completely random draw because I want the same odds at succeeding as everyone else. The future for anything is not guaranteed so why should it be for a tag? I don't want "glory" tags or the best units. I want to hunt and therefore I put in for the units that provide me a chance of drawing with the lowest number of points but lets use it as an example.

These are the numbers of the last six years for arguably one of the worst units in Utah.
2021 - Tags=16 Applicants= 167 Preference Points needed= 11
2020 - Tags=6 Applicants= 69 Preference Points needed= 11
2019 - Tags=6 Applicants= 50 Preference Points needed= 5
2018 - Tags=6 Applicants= 43 Preference Points needed= 5
2017 - Tags=6 Applicants= 40 Preference Points needed= 5
2016 - Tags=7 Applicants= 33 Preference Points needed= 5
2015 - Tags=11 Applicants= 37 Preference Points needed=4

I started to apply in 2015, as you can see when I started this would fall right in line with those that say you need a plan or to shoot for tags you can get in 4-5 year. Exactly what I wanted. 4 points became 5 and then in one year, one year, it became 11. All things held equal and if they gave all the tags to the top points holders (Utah is 50/50). It will take ten years to push that many people through. I may get lucky and get it with 10 points as I am a little higher up but what about the kid that is just starting? 21 points is what they are looking at. 21 points for the worst unit in the State. Low animals numbers, limited access, low quality, etc.

Is taking the point system away going to magically fix this? Nope but I would rather me, my nieces and nephews and eventually kids have a shot at all 16 tags each year over 8. My odds in 2021 were 8/159 = .05%. My odds in 2021 completely random 167/16 = .09%. I will take nearly double the odds now over a guarantee at some date in the future.

For those that try and liken this to a 401K. Its the direct opposite. The stock market is random. It can go up and it go down. Someone loses every time someone wins. Putting your money in the bank is a point system. You gain a small amount of interest but your money will be there at some date in the future. I can lose everything in a stock market. I can put in every year and get to the end with absolutely nothing. That is a random draw.

 

[cgasner1]

That’s the buck I killed last year in Utah on a limited entry muzzle loser tag pulled it with 6 points the residents said it would take them 15 plus if you want more tags put more skin in the game and start applying for tags you will see them


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[CorbLand]

That’s the buck I killed last year in Utah on a limited entry muzzle loser tag pulled it with 6 points the residents said it would take them 15 plus if you want more tags put more skin in the game and start applying for tags you will see them


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Did you pull it as the highest point holder?

 

[Maverick1]

16 pages of posts on this thread. Good to see universal agreement, final resolution, a plan supported by this community, and endorsement from the appropriate planning commissions of each state. When this new tag system be implemented?

 

[cgasner1]

Did you pull it as the highest point holder?

Idk what highest points is for Utah I had 6


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[CorbLand]

Idk what highest points is for Utah I had 6


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Max in Utah is 27 but Utah is split 50/50 meaning half the tags go to the highest point holders that applied for that unit, the other half go to a random out of the others that applied for that unit. So, if you didn't draw it as one of the highest point holders that applied for that unit...you got it in...you guessed it, a random draw.

 

[cgasner1]

Max in Utah is 27 but Utah is split 50/50 meaning half the tags go to the highest point holders that applied for that unit, the other half go to a random out of the others that applied for that unit. So, if you didn't draw it as one of the highest point holders that applied for that unit...you got it in...you guessed it, a random draw.

Ya it was but by studying all these states draw odds and having a plan I beat the odds guess what in a few years I’ll do it again. I chase tags off a percentage for most of them I apply in different units every year off the draw odds and throw a few wild cards in like that or New Mexico I’ll keep pulling tags on the system that we have while you guys complain about lack of opportunities and the world not being fair


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[CorbLand]

Ya it was but by studying all these states draw odds and having a plan I beat the odds guess what in a few years I’ll do it again. I chase tags off a percentage for most of them I apply in different units every year off the draw odds and throw a few wild cards in like that or New Mexico I’ll keep pulling tags on the system that we have while you guys complain about lack of opportunities and the world not being fair


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I do the same thing but a point system isnt benefiting you or I if we are getting them in the random side of things, so you might as well do away with it and in the State of Utah, nearly double your draw odds each year. The only thing you are gaining in Utah if you are playing the randoms is its a bonus system on the random side so you have more chances in the hat the more points you have. That is it. There's no predictability.

 

[cgasner1]

I do the same thing but a point system isnt benefiting you or I if we are getting them in the random side of things, so you might as well do away it and in the State of Utah, nearly double your draw odds each year. The only thing you are gaining in Utah if you are playing the randoms is its a bonus system on the random side so you have more chances in the hat the more points you have. That is it. There's no predictability.

There is no way to predict but with 15+ applications out with a few percent of a draw odds something will hit. I will have a tag to hunt won’t be blue chip but it’s a tag. This is a business to the agency they wanna keep the money coming and they know people will keep paying why would they wanna piss the guy off that has dumped 2500 or better into the state and never stepped foot into over someone that applied one year then realized it’s gonna be another 10 years


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[CorbLand]

There is no way to predict but with 15+ applications out with a few percent of a draw odds something will hit. I will have a tag to hunt won’t be blue chip but it’s a tag. This is a business to the agency they wanna keep the money coming and they know people will keep paying why would they wanna piss the guy off that has dumped 2500 or better into the state and never stepped foot into over someone that applied one year then realized it’s gonna be another 10 years


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But your saying keep a system because it obviously works, I get tags, when you are playing in the system that I and other are arguing for. You are not getting those tags because of points, you are getting them because your name is randomly being drawn.

I understand why states do it but if its all about money, auction every tag off to the highest bidder and be done. Government entities are not meant to run like a business. I get to drive on the same roads as everyone else regardless of the amount of fuel I buy and I get to send my kids to the same school as the guy that has 100 acres to my .25 acre. Governments don't run on how much someone puts in to the system.

 

[cgasner1]

But your saying keep a system because it obviously works, I get tags, when you are playing in the system that I and other are arguing for. You are not getting those tags because of points, you are getting them because your name is randomly being drawn.

I understand why states do it but if its all about money, auction every tag off to the highest bidder and be done. Government entities are not meant to run like a business. I get to drive on the same roads as everyone else regardless of the amount of fuel I buy and I get to send my kids to the same school as the guy that has 100 acres to my .25 acre. Governments don't run on how much someone puts in to the system.

I would love for every state to be ran like Montana they aren’t and won’t be good luck changing that I hope you do. Talk to some people that live in random draw states my buddy in Wyoming hates it he doesn’t know till June where he gets to hunt every year


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[CorbLand]

I would love for every state to be ran like Montana they aren’t and won’t be good luck changing that I hope you do. Talk to some people that live in random draw states my buddy in Wyoming hates it he doesn’t know till June where he gets to hunt every year


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You can do a random draw earlier in the year so people know sooner. That has nothing to do with a points system vs random.

I spent 20 years in Idaho and all of my family still lives there. Every single one loves the random draw.

I have friends in Idaho that left Utah because they wanted a random draw.

I know people that live 5 minutes over the Idaho border and travel into Utah to work because they wanted the random draw.

I know guys from Utah that apply in Idaho every year because they like the random draw.

I know guys from Arizona that apply in New Mexico every year because they like the random draw.

I have spoken to plenty of them, they like the random draw. I hope I get it changed as well but that isnt going to happen if I just sit back and remain quiet about it.

 

[Marble]

You presume a lot about others. Let me presume a little about you then. You're a self centered person who doesn't give a rats ass about other sportsmen and woman, nor the future of the Hunting. Is that fair? See, it's easy to attack messenger rather than discuss the issue.

You don't know how long I've been in line for, you don't. I've been hunting for forty-seven years and remember the days before the State divided us. I also apply in other States as well. Maybe I don't spend as much as others, but its a nice hunk change. I will continue to do so, while continuing to pursue a system that doesn't put all the hope in a small elite group that changes only incrementally year after year.

Man you need to take chill pill or something. This is just a discussion on points systems. It's just words....

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[Chrisamx]

Man you need to take chill pill or something. This is just a discussion on points systems. It's just words....

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Likewise

 

[cal30_sniper]

This thread isn't going to go anywhere. Lots of absolutism being bantered about to try and shame some who have different preferences into submission.

It's almost like we have a federalist distribution regarding game animal harvest amongst the states who've decided to do things quite differently from each other, giving a variety of spice sufficient to meet almost everyone's palettes. Almost.

 

[CorbLand]

This thread isn't going to go anywhere. Lots of absolutism being bantered about to try and shame some who have different preferences into submission.

It's almost like we have a federalist distribution regarding game animal harvest amongst the states who've decided to do things quite differently from each other, giving a variety of spice sufficient to meet almost everyone's palettes. Almost.

Sometimes they arent meant to go anywhere. Sometimes they are meant to be discussions where we can all talk about something and we dont all have to agree at the end. You can state your side, I can state mine, we can try to convince each other that the other is right and we go about our lives with a better understanding of each other. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[cal30_sniper]

Sometimes they arent meant to go anywhere. Sometimes they are meant to be discussions where we can all talk about something and we dont all have to agree at the end. You can state your side, I can state mine, we can try to convince each other that the other is right and we go about our lives with a better understanding of each other. Nothing more, nothing less.

I agree with you. It's discouraging to see some in here (not implying at all that you're one of them) so quick to start slinging poo at others who disagree with a different way of doing a completely optional thing. That's not the kind of rhetoric that changes anyone's mind or introduces any fresh ideas to a well-thrashed topic.

There are perfectly logical reasons to argue for any number of tag distribution systems. No reason that every one of them has to be the same, and it doesn't make someone irrational or selfish to prefer one way of doing things over another, especially when they provide clear justification for those preferences.

 

[Copperdale]

I think it has to crash. At this point in time, my kids (12 and 14) could not possibly ever draw the tag that I just drew that takes 21 points to draw!
He'll I just went to 0 points.
I have decided I will never chase the big 3 tags again in Oregon.
Luckily, while i was building points, I was able to bow hunt and killed a lot of nice bulls.
But they are changing the system next year so you can no longer work that part of the system.
I'm glad I'm at zero!
But for my kids- it will be a while different applications strategy in their lives.
They need to hunt!
Or they will lose Interest!

 

[CorbLand]

I agree with you. It's discouraging to see some in here (not implying at all that you're one of them) so quick to start slinging poo at others who disagree with a different way of doing a completely optional thing. That's not the kind of rhetoric that changes anyone's mind or introduces any fresh ideas to a well-thrashed topic.

There are perfectly logical reasons to argue for any number of tag distribution systems. No reason that every one of them has to be the same, and it doesn't make someone irrational or selfish to prefer one way of doing things over another, especially when they provide clear justification for those preferences.

I agree. I really do try to not throw insults or name calling into these. I am sure I do sometimes, but will never claim to be perfect.

 

[mproberts]

There are perfectly logical reasons to argue for any number of tag distribution systems. No reason that every one of them has to be the same, and it doesn't make someone irrational or selfish to prefer one way of doing things over another, especially when they provide clear justification for those preferences.

The frustrating part is that those on here talking about "jumping the line" "whiney young-ins" "selfish I want it now millennials" are often the most ignorant to how the system is actually working in some states. I personally don't have issue with all point systems, especially those that cycle people through fast. All I would ask is that people do a bit of research and have a educated take before they jump to labeling members as "selfish millennials".

I would like to cite how California allocates their tags again to show how certain systems are broken and unfair. Currently in any unit that has a quota of 4 tags or more (which is most units), 75-80% of the tags for elk, antelope and sheep are available only to top point holders, while between 20-25% are randomly distributed.

For Sheep there are (1,689) top point holders with (27) total tags issued last year
For Elk there are (2,309) top point holders with (281) total tags issued last year
For Antelope there are (751) top point holders with (245) total tags issued last year

What the state effectively has now is a system where many top point holders will never draw out, while enjoying the benefit of drastically higher tag allocation for their entire lifetime. Top point holders are also entered in the random 20-25% allocation draw along with the preference point 75-80% allocation draw.

All I'm asking people to consider is does it seem equitable to allocate 3-4x more tags for people that were lucky enough to have been able to apply the first year?