Peterson, Starline or…?

[TimberHunter]

Alright got some data…

I must have some how perfectly setup the Caldwell in perfect lighting since it behaved very well today lol. Never seen it work so well..

I loaded 7 cases that weight approx 157 grains empty (these would be in theory the low volume brass)

Magneto / Caldwell
1. 2684 / 2690
2. 2706 / 2695
3. 2705 / error
4. 2690 / 2692
5. 2676 / 2681
6. 2692 / 2697
7. 2682 / 2685


I also loaded 3 cases they weight approx 161 grains empty (these would be in theory the high volume cases)

Magneto / Caldwell
1. 2699 / 2687
2. 2712 / 2714
3 2702 / 2718


So assuming I don’t weight sort the Hornady brass my es is: 36 fps according to the magneto. SD is approx 11 fps over 10 shots.

This was the 4th time I’ve shot this Hornady brass and haven’t annealed. So overall not horrible

 

[SamsonMan22]

Alright got some data…

I must have some how perfectly setup the Caldwell in perfect lighting since it behaved very well today lol. Never seen it work so well..

I loaded 7 cases that weight approx 157 grains empty (these would be in theory the low volume brass)

Magneto / Caldwell
1. 2684 / 2690
2. 2706 / 2695
3. 2705 / error
4. 2690 / 2692
5. 2676 / 2681
6. 2692 / 2697
7. 2682 / 2685


I also loaded 3 cases they weight approx 161 grains empty (these would be in theory the high volume cases)

Magneto / Caldwell
1. 2699 / 2687
2. 2712 / 2714
3 2702 / 2718


So assuming I don’t weight sort the Hornady brass my es is: 36 fps according to the magneto. SD is approx 11 fps over 10 shots.

This was the 4th time I’ve shot this Hornady brass and haven’t annealed. So overall not horrible

Shoot it until it’s junk and just buy some better brass if nothing else for longevity next time around. Unless you are reaching out past 600yds or so those numbers are just fine for a field rifle.

 

[TimberHunter]

Shoot it until it’s junk and just buy some better brass if nothing else for longevity next time around. Unless you are reaching out past 600yds or so those numbers are just fine for a field rifle.

I’m been proficient out to 600 (with factory ammo) and am now working to shoot further (started modifying the tikka stock as well as picking back up reloading)


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[SamsonMan22]

After 600 your ES may come into play more, it comes down to the target size you want to make hits on.

Using your numbers with a 140eldm (wasn’t sure your bullet) on hornadys 4dof without changing the standard inputs you are 6” difference between your high and low at 800yds. Assuming you can hold and shoot Moa sized groups that spread will fall within that Moa range at 800yds. I’m still of the opinion after seeing some of the tests done, and my own shooting a gun that shoots Moa for 30 rounds at 100 will shoot Moa at 800 too. At that point it’s up to the shooter to judge and make all the right corrections and keep the wobble tight. Worrying about the ES you posted is far less of a concern than having a wobble zone larger than Moa.

 

[TimberHunter]

After 600 your ES may come into play more, it comes down to the target size you want to make hits on.

Using your numbers with a 140eldm (wasn’t sure your bullet) on hornadys 4dof without changing the standard inputs you are 6” difference between your high and low at 800yds. Assuming you can hold and shoot Moa sized groups that spread will fall within that Moa range at 800yds. I’m still of the opinion after seeing some of the tests done, and my own shooting a gun that shoots Moa for 30 rounds at 100 will shoot Moa at 800 too. At that point it’s up to the shooter to judge and make all the right corrections and keep the wobble tight. Worrying about the ES you posted is far less of a concern than having a wobble zone larger than Moa.

Thanks for the info!

If I routinely shoot sub MOA 10 shots groups at 100, wouldn’t the 6” of difference due to ES at 800 yards mean that my group would be approx .75 MOA plus the 6” so approx a 14” group?


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[SamsonMan22]

No, I don’t know how to explain this correctly but I hope this is somewhat close. I used your magnetospeed data above and will do the same here. You have an average in this case we will use your 10 shot average 2695.

Using your average velocity you drop will be 178.6” using your lowest velocity your drop will be 181.7 and your highest velocity will drop 176. In theory if you were to put your rifle into a vice and fire with no environmental factors the 3 shots would be in a vertical line with the average hitting center the low approximately 3” below it and the high just over 2.5” above it. All would be within the 1moa window at 800yds.

Obviously field shooting comes with a multitude of other factors that can cause the group size to open but no it would not be .75moa plus 6”. An Moa 10 round group at 100yds is taking the extreme spread into account its just on a very small scale and hard to measure vs at longer distances.

Edit* I’m not an expert in ballistics, shooting, or any of this, but I like math, numbers, statistics, and lots of shooting. I used to worry about tight es and then I started shooting larger group sizes, and a lot more volume. Those 2 things alone showed me a lot.

 

[FB Trout]

I use Lapua and Alpha almost interchangeably, both are the gold standard, IMO. Having said that, I also use once fired Sellier and Bellot brass from cheap factory ammo that I shoot or find. It’s better than Hornady as far as consistency and makes for good practice loads.

 

[TimberHunter]

No, I don’t know how to explain this correctly but I hope this is somewhat close. I used your magnetospeed data above and will do the same here. You have an average in this case we will use your 10 shot average 2695.

Using your average velocity you drop will be 178.6” using your lowest velocity your drop will be 181.7 and your highest velocity will drop 176. In theory if you were to put your rifle into a vice and fire with no environmental factors the 3 shots would be in a vertical line with the average hitting center the low approximately 3” below it and the high just over 2.5” above it. All would be within the 1moa window at 800yds.

Obviously field shooting comes with a multitude of other factors that can cause the group size to open but no it would not be .75moa plus 6”. An Moa 10 round group at 100yds is taking the extreme spread into account its just on a very small scale and hard to measure vs at longer distances.

I appreciate you taking time to break that down! I’ll likely end up picking up some good brass(Peterson or alpha as that’s all I can find in stock) and then just focus on practicing at distance


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[SamsonMan22]

I appreciate you taking time to break that down! I’ll likely end up picking up some good brass(Peterson or alpha as that’s all I can find in stock) and then just focus on practicing at distance


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That’s the best advice I can give you. Make a load that will do 1.5moa or better for 10+ shots and go shoot….a lot. The wind will hurt you a lot more than ES.

Use a ballistics calculator and input wind into your data changing it by 1mph and see how much drift there is for each over just a small range. The difference in a 10mph wind and a 12mph wind at 800yds is greater than the difference your particular ES will show.

 

[TimberHunter]

After a lot of paralysis by analysis, I went with Peterson since I was ordering UM tikka rings anyways.

I will update this thread with anything I notice or data I get to compare


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[TimberHunter]

Update:

Not exactly the magic trick I was looking for.

Did a 10 shot group with Peterson brass, H4350, 147 eldm and it shot right at 7/8” at 100 yards. But the ES was around 50 fps. So at least with virgin, high quality brass I’m not seeing any benefit in regards to ES. Looking back at all my notes Hornady brass has similar to slightly less ES.

So I don’t think my ES is brass related. Any guess if it’s the powder or the neck tension?


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[Mojave]

I have a couple thousand 6.5 CM cases from Hornady. I sorted them all by weight, then sized them all, did primer pocket work, trimmed, chamfered and measured necks and then sorted again.

It is nice to have super consistent new brass with everything perfect. But you can do pretty good work turning C+ to B- grade brass into A- to A brass by doing the sorting work.

 

[Lawnboi]

Update:

Not exactly the magic trick I was looking for.

Did a 10 shot group with Peterson brass, H4350, 147 eldm and it shot right at 7/8” at 100 yards. But the ES was around 50 fps. So at least with virgin, high quality brass I’m not seeing any benefit in regards to ES. Looking back at all my notes Hornady brass has similar to slightly less ES.

So I don’t think my ES is brass related. Any guess if it’s the powder or the neck tension?


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Couple things with virgin brass, especially if you’re shooting a looser chamber.

Loading virgin brass, especially with freshly (sticky) annealed necks is tough in terms of absolute neck consistency. To combat this the only way I have found works is to mandrel with a wet lube and dry tumble.

Same can be said if you anneal before loading. Annealing makes the brass exterior sticky. Take a piece of virgin Peterson, feel it, you can tell difference in friction. Combine this with tumbling to shiny clean and you can also continue to have issues.

The other thing is Peterson is thick brass. Looser chambers can take 2 firings to start to see sizing and firing consistency. Not uncommon to need to adjust the die for the first two firings. After your brass is totally formed I have found that my ES begin to come down.

My guess is all your seeing is neck tension related variation, combined with brass to chamber interface being different enough in virgin brass.

For reference, my last 2 creed barrels my es during my 10 shot zero velocity pre match went from ~25 to ~10 going from once fired to three plus fired.

 

[Houseminer]

I don’t have a lot of experience with Peterson but Starline has really impressed me the last few years. I wish they would would come out with some .257 Roberts and 6.5x55

 

[Vern400]

I spoke to a friend today who said he was going to buy some SRP 6.5 creedmoor brass. Where he lives, 40° is too cold to shoot so there's little risk of misfires or hang fires. He wants to be able to shoot small rifle or large rifle primers based on availability and he's sitting on 10,000 small rifle...

I never really considered buying some Palma 308 brass but heck it might be a good idea. Lapua is pretty busy. They're wondering if Russia's going to play nice after they get done pummeling Ukraine.

 

[Wrangler13]

Lapua 6.5 creedmoor Large rifle primer brass is available at grafs