Peterson 's Hunting - Small caliber article

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I've killed one bull elk with a 22" .308 (profile pic). Not sure how heavy, but he was damn old. Found him 20 miles back in the Bob. His ivories were flat, and his front teeth were falling out. Guide guesstimated 800 pounds.

• Shot was about 85 yards, steep downhill angle
• Round was factory Federal 175 TA @2600 MV and impact velocity was roughly 2450 fps
• Entry was slightly over midline behind the shoulder broadside
• Exit was near the arm pit on the far side
• Both lungs were hit and the heart was grazed
• Bullet wasn't recovered, but exit was about the size of a nickel
• Bull's front half dropped to his knees on impact, and he then got up, turned around, and walked 50-60 yards before tipping over. Total time to death was around 30 seconds, and he nearly went over a cliff.

My daughter killed an old magnum cow with an 18" 7-08. Her ivories were flat and she was missing teeth. Her body was enormous, and I have no idea how much she weighed.

• Shot was 185 yards, down hill angle
• Round was 162 ELDX handload @2628 MV and impact velocity was roughly 2400 fps
• Entry was slightly below midline behind the shoulder quartering away in the crease
• Bullet did not exit, and was found under the hide on the far side
• Both lunds were soup, near side rib was broken, and far side shoulder knuckle was shattered after the bullet passed through bone and vitals
• Bullet was recovered with lead core intact, and exit was a mess of shattered bone fragments and bloodshot
• Cow shuddered and buckled on impact, and took a couple steps right then left before falling in the original spot. Total time to death was less than 5 seconds.

My sample size is small. However, the lighter, smaller, and slower 7-08 round killed faster and delivered more damage prior to hitting large bones. After hitting bones and vitals it then proceeded to shatter one of the toughest, most mythical, bullet stopping bones on an elk- head of the humerus

The .308 trumped the 7-08 on velocity, bullet weight, recoil, and energy, but delivered less damage and took longer to kill. Shot placement was ideal on the bull and quartering away on the cow.

Granted, this is not a 223 vs 308 argument, but the point is the same. Bigger, heavier, and faster bullets, don't always do as much damage or kill as quickly as smaller, lighter, and slower bullets. Given that, for the guys that don't believe a 223 is enough, what information, other than anecdotal evidence from others, do 223 and small caliber haters use to decide what to shoot? It's time to bring the receipts and data. Then we can debate where the overlap at closer ranges ends and argue about long distance shooting vs. ethical distances... We have a couple months before antelope season, so let's go!

FWIW, I also shoot a 25-284 and a 6.5 WSM. Why? Because I like shooting wildcats and pushing them to full potential. I would be 100% comfortable taking either on an elk hunt with match bullets. However, depending on the terrain, that sweet little 18" 7-08 will be in the truck as well. Shoot what makes you happy and that you can shoot well.

 

[DLSJR]

Your expectation of "dam few" bulls over 900lb being lost is probably right. I would bet it's probably pretty close to zero. Show me a verified Rocky Mountain bull weighing over 900lb. Last time I asked you about that claim, you never responded. In fact, I believe you claimed something to the effect of bulls weighing 1,000lb was common in some mystical area.

Do you wonder how many bulls have been lost by guys shooting big boomers who flinch because they're scared of their gun?

In 1987 I had the good fortune to be able to hunt elk on New Mexico’s Baca Ranch, which is now the Valles Caldera National Monument. It’s some of the very finest elk hunting in the USA.

When I hunted there the ranch had been in a year’s long study of elk and one of the things they did was record weights of bulls killed. They literally tried to bring in everything from as many bulls as possible and in many cases they weighed bulls that were brought in fully intact with the guts still in the bull. When I shot my bull we were able to get a truck to it and loaded it whole, courtesy of a winch and ramp up into the pickup bed. I’m going from memory so won’t be exact but the live weights from several hundred bulls (they shot over 50 bulls a year on the ranch) showed an average live weight of about 920-925 pounds as I recall. To be fair, the ranch was focused heavily on taking older bulls that were in the 7-10 year+ range. I never thought bulls weighed that much but the ranch had years of data to support their findings.

Lots of elk are shot that weigh far less, primarily because most bull elk are shot before they get to that age where they get a lot bigger bodied. While I don’t have any data to back this up, my sense is that most elk hunters never kill a 330 class bull in their life. Age and antler size don’t always match, but large antlered bulls are mostly all older age class bulls.

 

[DLSJR]

Add those that didn’t drop immediately and the shooter didn’t bother to actually hike over and look for evidence of hit or miss.

And this applies to all calibers. I do believe that a lot of elk are lost annually by shooters who don’t bother to go look for evidence of a hit, especially when the distance is long and the bullet is small.

 

[DLSJR]

So you’re saying a well placed shot from a 22 caliber with the right bullet doesn’t kill fast enough? Multiple people, pictures and data and you’re the only one that’s right……

Regardless of people claiming good results with .22 caliber bullets, one undisputed authority on those little TMK bullets does not recommend them for most hunting applications, let alone for elk hunting. That undisputed authority is none other than the manufacturer, Sierra Bullets. The Sierra website literally says “…Matchking and tipped Matchking bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications.”

I think Sierra Bullets knows a bit more about what their bullets are appropriate for than nimrods who try to push the envelope in order to gain notoriety on Internet forums.

 

[Grizzle]

Regardless of people claiming good results with .22 caliber bullets, one undisputed authority on those little TMK bullets does not recommend them for most hunting applications, let alone for elk hunting. That undisputed authority is none other than the manufacturer, Sierra Bullets. The Sierra website literally says “…Matchking and tipped Matchking bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications.”

I think Sierra Bullets knows a bit more about what their bullets are appropriate for than nimrods who try to push the envelope in order to gain notoriety on Internet forums.

Haha oh boy you're joking right? If not you've got some knowledge gaps to fill in.

 

[KurtR]

Regardless of people claiming good results with .22 caliber bullets, one undisputed authority on those little TMK bullets does not recommend them for most hunting applications, let alone for elk hunting. That undisputed authority is none other than the manufacturer, Sierra Bullets. The Sierra website literally says “…Matchking and tipped Matchking bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications.”

I think Sierra Bullets knows a bit more about what their bullets are appropriate for than nimrods who try to push the envelope in order to gain notoriety on Internet forums.

You mean like hornady and the eld-m.........all those dead animals should know they should not be dead.

Military application has more to do with what they recommend due to legal reasons than what actual performance on animals shows but keep trying haha....................

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

And this applies to all calibers. I do believe that a lot of elk are lost annually by shooters who don’t bother to go look for evidence of a hit, especially when the distance is long and the bullet is small.

The size of the bullet, regardless of range, is irrelevant regarding efforts to recover an animal. Suggesting the people that shoot small bullets at long ranges are less interested in recovering the animal is ridiculous and offensive. If you believe this, I assume it is because you have first hand experience hunting with a bunch of unethical a$$holes. If that is the case, maybe find some new friends. If this belief is based on nothing but your baseless opinion, I recommend you keep it to yourself.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Regardless of people claiming good results with .22 caliber bullets, one undisputed authority on those little TMK bullets does not recommend them for most hunting applications, let alone for elk hunting. That undisputed authority is none other than the manufacturer, Sierra Bullets. The Sierra website literally says “…Matchking and tipped Matchking bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications.”

I think Sierra Bullets knows a bit more about what their bullets are appropriate for than nimrods who try to push the envelope in order to gain notoriety on Internet forums.

At Shot, the CEO told us that once they finished the new rollout, they would remove that wording from the website. Then you can use them... like a good boy!

 

[BBob]

That undisputed authority is none other than the manufacturer, Sierra Bullets. The Sierra website literally says “…Matchking and tipped Matchking bullets are not recommended for most hunting applications.”

I think Sierra Bullets knows a bit more about what their bullets are appropriate for than nimrods who try to push the envelope in order to gain notoriety on Internet forums.

Same story we got out of Berger decades ago. They fought it tooth and nail and finally gave in and accepted that those old VLD’s killed stuff just as well as other makers game specific bullets.

 

[The Guide]

And this applies to all calibers. I do believe that a lot of elk are lost annually by shooters who don’t bother to go look for evidence of a hit, especially when the distance is long and the bullet is small.

The size of the bullet dictates the ethics of the shooter post firing? That is a bold statement, Cotton. What about all the folks with a 300 Super Magnum who claim that "I they don't drop when I shoot, the wind caught my bullet" and never leave the road to look for the animal they shot at 2 ridges away out the window. That never happens, right? That's a real clown show take. Ehithics after the shot come from being taught the right way not the size cartridge you use.

Jay

 

[43.6N]

The size of the bullet dictates the ethics of the shooter post firing? That is a bold statement, Cotton. What about all the folks with a 300 Super Magnum who claim that "I they don't drop when I shoot, the wind caught my bullet" and never leave the road to look for the animal they shot at 2 ridges away out the window. That never happens, right? That's a real clown show take. Ehithics after the shot come from being taught the right way not the size cartridge you use.

Jay

I was coming to say the same thing.

Ethics and bullet caliber are two separate entities.
Let’s not confabulate that small bullet=small ethics or big bullet=big ethics.

I’m caliber agnostic. It’s a tool to do a job.
But ethics are non-negotiable IMO.

 

[Teaman1]

One thing I would like to see is videos of these smaller cartridges taking elk.
I’ve found a couple online, but one was a high shoulder shot and another was just the final shot on an already hit bull.
I tried one model of Berger a few years ago and animals definitely ran farther after lung shots compared to deer hit with soft points or accubonds.

I’m very curious on the topic and have considered a fast twist 25 caliber for myself.
Just don’t get enough chances at elk hunting to talk myself into taking a smaller cartridge over what I’ve seen work very well on the few elk kills that I’ve been apart of.

The pictures in the .223 are certainly impressive.

Edit: smaller cartridges as in 6mm or 22 cal

 

[Ryan Avery]

Don't believe the hype bulls are not much tougher than cow elk.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

One thing I would like to see is videos of these smaller cartridges taking elk.
I’ve found a couple online, but one was a high shoulder shot and another was just the final shot on an already hit bull.
I tried one model of Berger a few years ago and animals definitely ran farther after lung shots compared to deer hit with soft points or accubonds.

I’m very curious on the topic and have considered a fast twist 25 caliber for myself.
Just don’t get enough chances at elk hunting to talk myself into taking a smaller cartridge over what I’ve seen work very well on the few elk kills that I’ve been apart of.

The pictures in the .223 are certainly impressive.

Fast forward to the 27 minute mark. 15 year old girl with a measely 6.5 Creed at 300 yards drops a 400" bull slightly quartering away in one shot.

15 Year Old Girl Shoots a BULL OF HER LIFETIME!

I remember falling apart like that with my daughter when she killed her elk. Incredible moment for any father.

 

[Teaman1]

Fast forward to the 27 minute mark. 15 year old girl with a measely 6.5 Creed at 300 yards drops a 400" bull slightly quartering away in one shot.

15 Year Old Girl Shoots a BULL OF HER LIFETIME!

I remember falling apart like that with my daughter when she killed her elk. Incredible moment for any father.

Seen that episode, toad of an elk haha.
I am a 6.5 creed hater but I think they are fine for elk.
The 6mm’s and the 22 calibers were more what I was talking about.
Thanks for the response though

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Seen that episode, toad of an elk haha.
I am a 6.5 creed hater but I think they are fine for elk.
The 6mm’s and the 22 calibers were more what I was talking about.
Thanks for the response though

You're welcome and @Ryan Avery posted a video of the 6 creed. It's slightly flatter and faster than the 6.5 creed, with even less recoil, and is better on paper as a hunting round.

 

[Teaman1]

I’ve always wanted an excuse to get a fast twist 25-06. I just need a little more nudging to get me over the edge haha.
Want it even more now that there are some decent BC offerings in 25 cal

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Here are a couple of factoids that many already know, and some may not.

In terms of external ballistics (flight path, drop, and wind drift), caliber does not matter. Any bullet with the exact same ballistic coefficient (BC) and muzzle velocity will fly, drop, and drift identically in the air, regardless of whether it is a .224 or a .308.

Ammunition manufacturers do not publish a specific minimum foot-pounds of energy (ft-lbs) for terminal performance, as there is no universal industry standard. Instead, they publish minimum velocity thresholds for bullet expansion, which dictates the energy required.

If we can agree on these 2 facts, then the only argument left for larger vs. smaller caliber is bullet diameter and resulting wound channels. Everyone should also be able to agree that a .30 cal TMK with the same BC and muzzle velocity as a .22 cal TMK, striking an animal at the same distance, will have a larger wound channel. However, in most scenarios, this increase is not enough to provide "insurance, wallop, authority, margin for error, etc..." on poor shot placements.

The key tradeoff is that in order for a larger caliber to match the BC of a smaller caliber, you must use much larger and heavier bullets. Accordingly, you have to use much more powder to drive the heavier bullets at the same muzzle velocity as a smaller caliber, in some cases dramatically increasing recoil to achieve the same objective. And this, more than anything else, can impact the level of marksmanship and proficiency for larger caliber shooters, because the rifles are less pleasant to shoot. This can be mititgated with brakes and suppressors, and people often can shoot larger calibers and magnums well.

The pi$$ing match will continue no doubt, regardless of what additional facts, anecdotes, and necropsy picutres are posted.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I’ve always wanted an excuse to get a fast twist 25-06. I just need a little more nudging to get me over the edge haha.
Want it even more now that there are some decent BC offerings in 25 cal

Fast twist 25-06 AI is a great compromise for those wanting to try the new without completely sacrificing a proven cartridge. The key benefit of the improved shoulder is reducing case stretch and required trimming.

 

[dårlig jeger]

I was coming to say the same thing.

Ethics and bullet caliber are two separate entities.
Let’s not confabulate that small bullet=small ethics or big bullet=big ethics.

I’m caliber agnostic. It’s a tool to do a job.
But ethics are non-negotiable IMO.