Peterson 's Hunting - Small caliber article

[mt terry d]

Do you wonder how many bulls have been lost by guys shooting big boomers who flinch because they're scared of their gun?

Add those that didn’t drop immediately and the shooter didn’t bother to actually hike over and look for evidence of hit or miss.

 

[BuckSmasher]

Add those that didn’t drop immediately and the shooter didn’t bother to actually hike over and look for evidence of hit or miss.

Add to those that were wounded by a .223 and the elk didn't die, or went three miles before dying.

 

[jonnyviceroy]

I just like the idea of shooting the heaviest for caliber frangible bullet, at the fastest speeds you personally can; while giving up no detrimental amount of precision or ability to spot hits and make follow ups. There’s no downsides to it.

So it’s dependent on the shooter, the possible field positions, the rifle weight and the muzzle device.

Definitely no one size fits all, and there doesn’t need to be.

Very very well said.

 

[MTlan66]

Maybe they were inaccurate?

It’s possible! Hard to tell with a Leupold on top (that is a joke).

And a 6.5 Creedmoor is a FAR cry from a .223

I totally understand that, especially concerning shooting big game with it, but the comment was about shoot ability. I’m not sure I get your point.

I am not here to defend shooting stuff with a .223. I never have shot anything with one, I don’t owns one and I don’t intend to. I do come to Rokslide expecting to read people’s personal experiences on what works and what doesn’t for them, and I totally get that that can be very different, and sometimes contradictory. What I get tired of is lots of authoritative comments on things that the commenter has no personal experience with.

My .02

 

[Marbles]

"Notably, advocates of using small cartridges and target bullets on big game tend to breeze right past any discussion of both shoulder and steeply quartering shots. Now that’s fair if you’re managing overpopulated deer and have the luxury of waiting for a clean broadside shot. But what if you’re the guy that’s saved for half his life to pay for a premium elk hunt in the Rocky Mountains?"

For real. I would want a bullet/rifle combo that could penetrate more than 5 inches or so. So should anyone!

What bullet did this? Impact velocity was about 2690 fps. Sloppy shooting and I missed the brain and spine, but still dropped that 450~ pound hog on the spot.

 

[mt terry d]

Add to those that were wounded by a .223 and the elk didn't die, or went three miles before dying.

That’s entirely possible but in reality it’s less likely as it’s proven as most everyone is more accurate with lesser recoiling rifles not to mention those who have gone the RSS route in all likelihood practice much much more than your average “sight in a week before season” magnum hunters of which outnumber RSS shooters at least a hundred if not a thousand to one.

 

[The Guide]

I personally have not tried that comparison, but I can assure you that I shoot my 6.5 Creedmoor far better than I ever shot my 300 Win Mag, or 30.06.

I agree with what you are saying but I wouldn't say I shot my bigger guns worse as I was able to keep them sub MOA. What I will say it that it is so much easier to obtain that same level of accuracy with my "little" guns that I shoot them more frequently and only bring out the "magnum cartridges" for specific circumstances like extreme cold late winter elk hunts. Even then, I'll take my 6.5 PRC over my 338WM or 338 AX.

We (my wife, daughter, son, and I) have killed over a dozen deer and antelope with the 223, 22 ARC, and 22CM using the 73 ELDM, 75 ELDM, 77 TMK, and 80 ELDM bullets in factory ammo. Carried my pink 223 and my 22CM all last season and never felt "under gunned". I didn't shoot an elk only because I never had a legal animal in front of me.

I came to Rokslide with an open mind. I wasn't here a week and had already bought a Tikka package with a magnum bolt face action and 3 barrels (6.5 PRC, 300WM, and 300WSM) from a guy who jumped into an airplane and flew it up to the airport near me to hand deliver it to me. Thanks again Jordan!

I read the 223 thread and figured I'd try it out. Ordered the cheapest 8 twist bolt action 223 I could find on Gunbroker (used with a scope for $400) and 200 rounds of Black Hills 5.56 77tmk. Took it out and shot a buck antelope with it at 400 yards 2 days later after work. Killed just as easily as my 243, 6mm Creedmoor, 260, 6.5CM, 264WM, 270win, 270WSM, 280AI, 7mm-08, and 300WM did. Got my kids shooting it and they killed whitetail and mule deer with it just as easily they did with their 6.5CM and 7mm-08 only with less mental stress. I am of the mindset that the 223 isn't the the end all be all for hunting but it and other small calibers have worked very well for me and my family.

Jay

 

[Forkasauras]

I would really like to know the specifics of how smaller cartridges failed the author when taking deer sized or larger game…

John

He has a story about a deer 'that was shot perfect' with a 77 gr tmk they found a couple of days later and another where he only got 8 inches of penetration from a 6 creedmoor. He has a whole podacst about why small calibers are not good for big game in response to Forms appearence on the Exo Mountian podcast. Called the Exo guys unethical for hunting with a 6 creedmoor.

Everybody has a story about that time a bullet failed. What they never have is a story about that time they made a bad shot.

 

[BuckSmasher]

I agree with what you are saying but I wouldn't say I shot my bigger guns worse as I was able to keep them sub MOA. What I will say it that it is so much easier to obtain that same level of accuracy with my "little" guns that I shoot them more frequently and only bring out the "magnum cartridges" for specific circumstances like extreme cold late winter elk hunts. Even then, I'll take my 6.5 PRC over my 338WM or 338 AX.

We (my wife, daughter, son, and I) have killed over a dozen deer and antelope with the 223, 22 ARC, and 22CM using the 73 ELDM, 75 ELDM, 77 TMK, and 80 ELDM bullets in factory ammo. Carried my pink 223 and my 22CM all last season and never felt "under gunned". I didn't shoot an elk only because I never had a legal animal in front of me.

I came to Rokslide with an open mind. I wasn't here a week and had already bought a Tikka package with a magnum bolt face action and 3 barrels (6.5 PRC, 300WM, and 300WSM) from a guy who jumped into an airplane and flew it up to the airport near me to hand deliver it to me. Thanks again Jordan!

I read the 223 thread and figured I'd try it out. Ordered the cheapest 8 twist bolt action 223 I could find on Gunbroker (used with a scope for $400) and 200 rounds of Black Hills 5.56 77tmk. Took it out and shot a buck antelope with it at 400 yards 2 days later after work. Killed just as easily as my 243, 6mm Creedmoor, 260, 6.5CM, 264WM, 270win, 270WSM, 280AI, 7mm-08, and 300WM did. Got my kids shooting it and they killed whitetail and mule deer with it just as easily they did with their 6.5CM and 7mm-08 only with less mental stress. I am of the mindset that the 223 isn't the the end all be all for hunting but it and other small calibers have worked very well for me and my family.

Jay

This is kinda my experience also. Shot a ton of pigs and one decent whitetail with .223. Slayed several critters with .243. When my son is older gonna get him on .223/.243/6.5 grendel for his first hog and deer hunt.

However. This is an elk subforum. Last year we packed out 260 lb of boned out elk meat, not including his head and antlers. Ive never seen a whitetail get close to that whole. A .223 is not enough rifle to ethically kill elk. With all we have available to us anyone that does is trying to make a statement, and they are.

 

[The Guide]

This is kinda my experience also. Shot a ton of pigs and one decent whitetail with .223. Slayed several critters with .243. When my son is older gonna get him on .223/.243/6.5 grendel for his first hog and deer hunt.

However. This is an elk subforum. Last year we packed out 260 lb of boned out elk meat, not including his head and antlers. Ive never seen a whitetail get close to that whole. A .223 is not enough rifle to ethically kill elk. With all we have available to us anyone that does is trying to make a statement, and they are.

It's not that I won't kill an elk with a 223 or don't know people who have. My little brother did a ton of predator hunting from high school until he got his master electrician card. He's killed 2 bulls and a cow with his AR and 55 VMAX'S. 1 or 2 shots in the pocket from 100 to 200 yards. They died just as fast as elk shot with his 30-06 or 338WM. Those 3 elk are the only ones he's shot at with his AR. Elk are not hard to kill. I've seen more shyt shows from people using large magnum cartridges they can hit with than I've seen with small cartridges when elk hunting over the years. Guys begging me to give them some of my ammo or let them use my gun as their elk hobbled away with a bullet in each quarter. People in general suck at shooting and get worse with more pressure. Don't even get me started on people who think that they can shoot an elk offhand from 300 yards. Just because you can do that stuff on Call of Duty doesn't mean you can do it in real life with zero practice.

Jay

 

[RancherJohn]

I can tell you one. .243 Win Texas whitetail. 95 grain ballistic tip. Shot entered around the last rib on near side angling up into chest on far side, deer quartering away. Dropped at the sound of the shot, then got up and ran 10 yards or so before finally dying. Large hole in diaphram but no bullet was ever found. A few specs. No exit wound. How much deer would it have had to go through to exit? I don't know if a Texas buck is 8-10 inches wide broadside maybe 17-20 inches would have been necessary to exit? Of course if I had known 10 years later I would be telling folks on the internet penetration is important.....

You need to buy a tape measure or use a trekking pole/ rifle barrel/arrow shaft and start measuring things for yourself. Elk are bigger than deer but they are not 9 feet tall and 3 feet thick, nor do they have 8" thick shoulders and 1/4" hide. The author of that article is lying for clicks and views.

If no bullet was ever found, isn't that a perfect expenditure of the bullet's energy? An exit hole may offer a better blood trail, but all it's doing is killing the dirt behind the animal.

The elk cavity pictures speak for themselves. The final two pictures are a 77 gr SMK at 110 yds through 14 ga mild steel then .120" 4340 chromoly. There is nothing in the front half of an elk or moose that you'd shoot through that is tougher than either of those, let alone both spaced apart.

 

[Scandiacus]

We all have opinions and experience. Use a legal round, get as close as you can, and put the bullet where it belongs. Nothing else matters.

My favorite quote by Dave Petzal is this: "If you can’t shoot, it doesn’t matter what you use. If you can shoot, it doesn’t matter what you use."

I always enjoy Petzal's articles. Is he still writing anywhere?