Peterson 's Hunting - Small caliber article

[HunterGatherer]

Don't think I have read every single page. Spent a fair amount of time on there. I disagree with most of the conclusions drawn on there, that thread is for the folks that like and agree with the premise, I don't, so I don't post.

I have zero experience with 77 TMK. That said I have shot more critters with .223 than most of the people on this forum even the most ardent .223 folks. Mainly pigs of various sizes. Enough experience to believe its real that you can kill a moose with one, and enough to know its not a good idea.

So what you’re saying is that a 223 IS adequate to kill an elk but maybe it’s not THE ideal choice for it. Honestly, I kill most of my elk with a bow and when I do pick up a rifle to hunt them I don’t shoot a 223 but it’s not because I think it’s inadequate. It’s just not my personal choice for the way I hunt and the type of bullets I like to shoot. More importantly, I don’t think it really matters that much. You can kill em with all kinds of stuff. They’re really not that hard to kill unless you mess up pretty bad.

You’re right that there is a 223 cult, but there’s also the 30 cal cult. There’s a Ford cult and Chevy cult… on and on. Everyone has their reasons for shooting what they shoot and it’s rather pointless to debate it any more than it’s already been debated.

 

[mt terry d]

This thread proves all the .223 is adequate crowd already knows that there position is indefensible. So they ad hominem and straw man while relying on their clique for support.

I have 8 elk in the last 3 years with the 223/77TMK combo that has proven to me it's definitely adequate.
Optimal? For me and my current ability? Probably.
Optimal for others with more skill? Probably not. But still adequate even for them.

 

[mad_angler]

It seems pretty simple...

- A "tough" bullet from a large caliber will make a wound channel that is 1-2 inches wide and 30 inches long.
- A bullet like a TMK will make a wound channel 3-5 inches wide and 10-14 inches long

An elk is about 14 inches wide.

Both channels will kill just fine on a perfect broadside shot (and the TMK will probably kill better)

If you miss the lungs by 1-2 inches, the TMK will still probably kill the elk. The "tough" bullet probably will not.

If you come in from the rear, the TMK will probably not reach the lungs.

If you find king kong the elk with 14 inches of meat and bone protecting the lungs, then you will need the "tough" bullet.

 

[3325]

I don't think anything that guy writes is interesting.

He has a bias and this has been his meal ticket lately.

Exactly. He got paid, so he doesn’t care that we entertain ourselves by writing rebuttals here. Just laughs all the way to the bank, probably.

 

[TradLife406]

My 77 tmk experience is limited to three deer my girls shot with a 22 creed.
Grandpa was always killing deer with 222, 223, 22-250. So I was already sold on the idea.

What I saw from the wounds was pretty freaking horrific.

We did try and find a cow for my oldest as a test subject but elk are female dogs

But I can't imagine the results of the wound channel would somehow be smaller or less because the test median got larger.

Hoping this year we have better luck finding elk. Plan to have her take the Creed and I'll take my Rokslide trainer.

My cartridge selection process is simple. Will it cause Fudd tears? If yes, then it must be legit!

The soft fragging bullet idea was actually something I have seen over the years when I tried heavy bonded or mono bullets. How can a deer with a 140 grain accubond hole through both lungs from a Wby fun a quarter mile? Or another just flat run off with no blood

Also had the same issue with Barnes in 22 and 6mm.

My buddy was telling me how tough elk are. How he has to shoot them three times with magnums. He was floored that my 6 UM dumped my bull with one shot. From about three times as far as he usually shoots. 115 DTac.

 

[dsotm]

Fudds gonna fudd

 

[aq3]

I don't think anything that guy writes is interesting.

He has a bias and this has been his meal ticket lately. Same guy made a video shooting a beef knuckle as his proof. No correlation to killing elk at all.

There are plenty of pictures of small bullets shattering big bones. Fortunately, the biggest bones aren't really in front of the vitals.

 

[DLSJR]

I’ve watched with interest, and occasionally gotten involved in discussions/debates about the merits or complete lack thereof, of small calibers for elk. In the end I’ve concluded simply that there is NO instance where any small caliber cartridge is THE BEST tool for the job when hunting elk. Period.

It does not matter if it can be done with a .22-.24 caliber cartridge. What matters is that those calibers are NEVER the best tool for the job of efficiently and cleanly killing an elk.

 

[ckt3]

I’ve watched with interest, and occasionally gotten involved in discussions/debates about the merits or complete lack thereof, of small calibers for elk. In the end I’ve concluded simply that there is NO instance where any small caliber cartridge is THE BEST tool for the job when hunting elk. Period.

It does not matter if it can be done with a .22-.24 caliber cartridge. What matters is that those calibers are NEVER the best tool for the job of efficiently and cleanly killing an elk.

Not arguing with you, just interested in your thought process. Which caliber(s) are the best tool for the job and why? And how does cartridge factor in?

 

[BuckSmasher]

Not arguing with you, just interested in your thought process. Which caliber(s) are the best tool for the job and why? And how does cartridge factor in?

Oh just curious about his thought process with an open mind are ya?

 

[StupidLightweight]

Everyone's best cartridge/bullet combo is different, but here's how I determine mine. What would I take on a once-in-a-lifetime hunt? For me, the dream is an Idaho bighorn sheep hunt where I may have once chance with a long poke, no redos or second-chance attempts, but my cartridge/bullet choice would apply to virtually any game animal in North America.

Would it choose a .223 with 77 TMKs? The answer is no because of wind drift. It would likely get the job done, but I'm not an expert wind caller, so I wouldn't choose this combo. I would be surprised if anyone did.

Would it be a .300 Norma flinging a Berger 245? Nope. Theres' no way in hell I'd deal with that level of recoil or rifle weight. Again, I'd be surprised if anyone chose this.

At this point, I'd likely go with a 22 Creed and 80 or 88 ELD-Ms or a 6mm Creedmoor with the 108 ELD-M or 116 TMK. To me, this is the best choice for deer, goat, sheep, or elk.

 

[ckt3]

Oh just curious about his thought process with an open mind are ya?

Hahaha brother stop trolling. Yes I genuinely am. I am not funded by Big 223. I don’t give a shit what works best, I just want to know what it is and what the data/logic are that support it. This guy has a strong opinion, so I’m interested to hear how he arrived at it. If it’s compelling and different from my current beliefs, then I’d update my beliefs accordingly. Believe it or not, there are rational dispassionate people out there.

 

[BuckSmasher]

I don’t give a shit what works best,

Clearly so.

 

[Hnthrdr]

My 77 tmk experience is limited to three deer my girls shot with a 22 creed.
Grandpa was always killing deer with 222, 223, 22-250. So I was already sold on the idea.

What I saw from the wounds was pretty freaking horrific.

We did try and find a cow for my oldest as a test subject but elk are female dogs

But I can't imagine the results of the wound channel would somehow be smaller or less because the test median got larger.

Hoping this year we have better luck finding elk. Plan to have her take the Creed and I'll take my Rokslide trainer.

My cartridge selection process is simple. Will it cause Fudd tears? If yes, then it must be legit!

The soft fragging bullet idea was actually something I have seen over the years when I tried heavy bonded or mono bullets. How can a deer with a 140 grain accubond hole through both lungs from a Wby fun a quarter mile? Or another just flat run off with no blood

Also had the same issue with Barnes in 22 and 6mm.

My buddy was telling me how tough elk are. How he has to shoot them three times with magnums. He was floored that my 6 UM dumped my bull with one shot. From about three times as far as he usually shoots. 115 DTac.

Holy smokes is that late season hide armor?! Even thicker than rutted up hide?! Amazing that there was any penetration at all!