Painless Load Prep (Precursor to Painless Load Development)

[bigsky_hunter]

What’s the consensus on virgin brass. Use a mild load to initially fire form, then do load development? Or just start loading and not worry about it?

 

[WeiserBucks]

What’s the consensus on virgin brass. Use a mild load to initially fire form, then do load development? Or just start loading and not worry about it?

Yes, to both. It's entirely up to the individual.

 

[43.6N]

At the risk of looking more like an idiot, here’s an update after today’s shooting. I was ignorant of the significance that controlling the shoulder bump can have. So after yesterdays discussion on this thread I wanted to test it out myself.

I took a known load, and loaded 10 at my previous shoulder bump.
Adjusted my die to only bump 2 thou. Then loaded 10 more.

Shot both groups today.
Group size seems equal, but SD was significantly more consistent for the 2 thousands group.
Previous shoulder bump velocity SD: 12.2 for 10 shots.
New shoulder bump velocity SD: 7.6 for 10 shots.

I had no trouble feeding the new longer case length.

So in the interest of “painless” load development I would say yes, taking the time to set up a die for 0.002 shoulder bump is worth the effort. Especially when compared to my previous SOP of just screwing the die down to the shell holder.

Thanks @wind gypsy and @huntnful for your comments yesterday. Turns out it’s not vudu, and you guys know what you’re talking about.

 

[wind gypsy]

This nearly bit me this year for the first time. Min spec cut chamber and sizing back 2-3 thou. Somehow I got some carbon flake or who knows what in my chamber and could not chamber a round on a deer. Spent 5 minutes pulling the bolt out, finding a dry stick I could get in there to scrape whatever it was out and finally getting it to chamber one. Luckily the deer hung around. I am not sure if more head space would have made it any different but it sure made me question having such a tightly cut chamber.

I think it's a downside of suppressors if they get carried muzzle up much. Have had it happen too. Luckily just at the range.

 

[Harvey_NW]

What’s the consensus on virgin brass. Use a mild load to initially fire form, then do load development? Or just start loading and not worry about it?

Either, but I would drop an extra grain if you do a pressure test on new brass. In most cases fireformed brass will show pressure signs sooner because there's less space for the brass to expand to.

Example: I worked up to 59gr with faint ejector marks on a hot day, so I loaded at 58 and shot the rest over time. 58gr on a winter day with fireformed brass had solid ejector marks and sticky extraction, dropped the charge another 1.5gr (56.5gr N565, easy to remember) and have had no issues in any weather since.

 

[HuntHarder]

What’s the consensus on virgin brass. Use a mild load to initially fire form, then do load development? Or just start loading and not worry about it?

I only shoot Lapua or Alpha brass any more. With both of them, I work up a load with virgin brass. When I find pressure, I typically back off a grain or 2, knowing that after I shoot it, and size it, it typically will be higher pressure with the same charge weight. Essentially the brass is now fit to the chamber and all the "work" of the powder is put into expelling the bullet. The brass barely moves. Very rarely do i need to tweak after I find a good load on virgin brass. Again tho, I mandrel all my virgin brass too.

 

[huntnful]

At the risk of looking more like an idiot, here’s an update after today’s shooting. I was ignorant of the significance that controlling the shoulder bump can have. So after yesterdays discussion on this thread I wanted to test it out myself.

I took a known load, and loaded 10 at my previous shoulder bump.
Adjusted my die to only bump 2 thou. Then loaded 10 more.

Shot both groups today.
Group size seems equal, but SD was significantly more consistent for the 2 thousands group.
Previous shoulder bump velocity SD: 12.2 for 10 shots.
New shoulder bump velocity SD: 7.6 for 10 shots.

I had no trouble feeding the new longer case length.

So in the interest of “painless” load development I would say yes, taking the time to set up a die for 0.002 shoulder bump is worth the effort. Especially when compared to my previous SOP of just screwing the die down to the shell holder.

Thanks @wind gypsy and @huntnful for your comments yesterday. Turns out it’s not vudu, and you guys know what you’re talking about.

Dang you made short work of testing to see for yourself! I like it!

Anytime you see something that may peak your curiosity, I definitely recommend just testing it for yourself like you did. It’s worth the effort IMO

 

[Formidilosus]

At the risk of looking more like an idiot, here’s an update after today’s shooting. I was ignorant of the significance that controlling the shoulder bump can have. So after yesterdays discussion on this thread I wanted to test it out myself.

I took a known load, and loaded 10 at my previous shoulder bump.
Adjusted my die to only bump 2 thou. Then loaded 10 more.

Shot both groups today.
Group size seems equal, but SD was significantly more consistent for the 2 thousands group.
Previous shoulder bump velocity SD: 12.2 for 10 shots.
New shoulder bump velocity SD: 7.6 for 10 shots.

I had no trouble feeding the new longer case length.

So in the interest of “painless” load development I would say yes, taking the time to set up a die for 0.002 shoulder bump is worth the effort. Especially when compared to my previous SOP of just screwing the die down to the shell holder.

Thanks @wind gypsy and @huntnful for your comments yesterday. Turns out it’s not vudu, and you guys know what you’re talking about.

Do you believe 4fps SD is going outside the common variation day to do, and do you believe it’s going show on a target?

 

[43.6N]

Do you believe 4fps SD is going outside the common variation day to do, and do you believe it’s going show on a target?

Good point.

I picked up this barrel (223 wylde) up August this year. After settling on a load, I picked up 8.8lbs of Varget, 1000ct 80gr eldm, and 1000 federal gmm small rifle primers. And 200 pieces of Starline brass.

Initial die settings were locked in place once I settled on the initial load. And apart from short experiments with other powders and bullets, the main load recipe hasn’t been adjusted until the shoulder bump experiment mentioned above.

All that is to say, I’ve been able to control the variability of the ingredients and dimensions going into this barrel better than most.

I have roughly 800 rounds worth of data for that main load. Going back through the historic shot strings on my chronograph I see the following (2 week sample since weather has been relatively consistent)
10 shots (11.2 sd)
10 shots (11.5 sd)
18 shots (11.4 sd)
10 shots (11.2 sd)
24 shots (12.1 sd)
12 shots (12.0 sd)
31 shots (13.8 sd)

To suddenly see an SD under 10 is notable for this load.

What’s more, going through the other calibers I load for, my historic velocity SD hovers between 10-15 for 10 and 20 shot groups. I take this to represent how consistent I am as a reloader. So again, to suddenly see less velocity deviation is notable for me and my process.

Now, I only have a sample of 10 shots at 100yds with the new shoulder bump setting. The 10 shot group dispersion today looks to be the same as any other 10 shot group this load/barrel has produced. I don’t feel confident enough to say how it will affect my shooting at distance yet. But my typical dispersion for the previous load would exceed an 8” plate at 850 yds.

 

[nm.otter]

I would say yes, taking the time to set up a die for 0.002 shoulder bump is worth the effort. Especially when compared to my previous SOP of just screwing the die down to the shell holder.

I was looking at headspace comparators and called Hornady to ask why they suggest using a .375" bushing for Creedmoors when SAAMI specs the datum at .400" diameter. They claim more consistent results measuring further up thanks to the 30° shoulder angle.

SAAMI datum for 6mm GT is .375" -- they recommend the .375" bushing for the 35° shoulder angle.

 

[Formidilosus]

Good point.

I picked up this barrel (223 wylde) up August this year. After settling on a load, I picked up 8.8lbs of Varget, 1000ct 80gr eldm, and 1000 federal gmm small rifle primers. And 200 pieces of Starline brass.

Initial die settings were locked in place once I settled on the initial load. And apart from short experiments with other powders and bullets, the main load recipe hasn’t been adjusted until the shoulder bump experiment mentioned above.

All that is to say, I’ve been able to control the variability of the ingredients and dimensions going into this barrel better than most.

I have roughly 800 rounds worth of data for that main load. Going back through the historic shot strings on my chronograph I see the following (2 week sample since weather has been relatively consistent)
10 shots (11.2 sd)
10 shots (11.5 sd)
18 shots (11.4 sd)
10 shots (11.2 sd)
24 shots (12.1 sd)
12 shots (12.0 sd)
31 shots (13.8 sd)

To suddenly see an SD under 10 is notable for this load.

What’s more, going through the other calibers I load for, my historic velocity SD hovers between 10-15 for 10 and 20 shot groups. I take this to represent how consistent I am as a reloader. So again, to suddenly see less velocity deviation is notable for me and my process.

Now, I only have a sample of 10 shots at 100yds with the new shoulder bump setting. The 10 shot group dispersion today looks to be the same as any other 10 shot group this load/barrel has produced. I don’t feel confident enough to say how it will affect my shooting at distance yet. But my typical dispersion for the previous load would exceed an 8” plate at 850 yds.

4fps SD won’t change results down range. Or, better way to say it- it would take a lot of shooting, and being very anal about every detail to see it, and positively determine that it is indeed changing the groups.

 

[43.6N]

4fps SD won’t change results down range. Or, better way to say it- it would take a lot of shooting, and being very anal about every detail to see it, and positively determine that it is indeed changing the groups.

You’re right.
I ran it through the WEZ, and under ideal conditions hit probability for my 850yd 8” gong went from 39.9% to 42.8% with the two different sd.

 

[bigsky_hunter]

Either, but I would drop an extra grain if you do a pressure test on new brass. In most cases fireformed brass will show pressure signs sooner because there's less space for the brass to expand to.

Example: I worked up to 59gr with faint ejector marks on a hot day, so I loaded at 58 and shot the rest over time. 58gr on a winter day with fireformed brass had solid ejector marks and sticky extraction, dropped the charge another 1.5gr (56.5gr N565, easy to remember) and have had no issues in any weather since.

Learned something new today. This would explain my increase in pressure on my second loading of Peterson brass for my .284. Had to drop from 53 gr to 51.5.
I’ll keep this in mind going forward and be a little more conservative.

 

[Harvey_NW]

4fps SD won’t change results down range. Or, better way to say it- it would take a lot of shooting, and being very anal about every detail to see it, and positively determine that it is indeed changing the groups.

I know it's true and essentially a placebo but for some of us not nearly as trained or experienced as you, sometimes small things like that (noticeable outliers with fairly credible data sets) can make me more confident with the setup.

Learned something new today. This would explain my increase in pressure on my second loading of Peterson brass for my .284. Had to drop from 53 gr to 51.5.
I’ll keep this in mind going forward and be a little more conservative.

It's been consistent and worked well for me in the last couple barrels I've started with new lots of brass. Worst case scenario you can double check with a short pressure ladder on formed brass. Glad it was useful.

 

[Formidilosus]

I know it's true and essentially a placebo but for some of us not nearly as trained or experienced as you, sometimes small things like that (noticeable outliers with fairly credible data sets) can make me more confident with the setup.

Then why not do all the 27 trick moves for reloading that waste your time and life, and get you nothing?


Lying to one’s self for “confidence” doesn’t actually work out. The reason “painless loading” turns into “make it as f’ing hard as you can” is precisely because of this. People don’t want to just accept that the only thing that matters is practice in the field. None of this crap matters, and it’s stupid.



I’m not saying to size down so much that brass splits in two firings, but the first requirement of ammunition is that it loads and goes “BANG” without excuse. We’ve had multiple people at S2H classes not be able to chamber their reloads during the class from dust, water, dirt - always when asked: “I neck size only or “I bumped the shoulders back”.

 

[nm.otter]

If I'm only loading for one rifle, this could get stupid simple: Set FL sizing die so that a finished case will chamber easily, but one with a layer of Scotch tape on its heel gets tight. That should produce the maximum about of case life with a minimum of slop.

 

[mtnbound]

Correct. Like if you want a .003 bump. But you bump the first piece .001 and need to adjust the die deeper.

Ok, that makes it clearer for me what you are doing.

 

[mtnbound]

I guess I'm more of a caveman when it comes to reloading. I set my 223 die per the manufacturer's spec, and I have not changed my die setting at all. I do not know what I am bumping my shoulder to, and I can't say I have seen any difference in the accuracy from my virgin firing to my most recent. Of course, that could mean my shooting is bad enough, I can't tell.

As I have said before, if a loaded round won't chamber, it is marked and tossed into a container marked "check". Of the last 250 cases of 223 that have 6 known reloads; I have 8 cases in my container. I have thrown away or lost 11 other cases.

With my 22CM, I have 50 cases with 3 reloads each; 0 are in my "check" bin, and I've thrown away 2 and lost 1. Again, I set my die to the manufacturer's spec and have not changed it.

Not saying I'm doing things right, but it works for me. I think the biggest thing with threads like this is to keep an open mind and test for yourself.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Then why not do all the 27 trick moves for reloading that waste your time and life, and get you nothing?

I didn't realize properly setting up a sizing die was 27 trick moves, and it can give you lower SD's, which is an actual improvement whether it's hard to see and takes a million live fire rounds or not.

Lying to one’s self for “confidence” doesn’t actually work out. The reason “painless loading” turns into “make it as f’ing hard as you can” is precisely because of this. People don’t want to just accept that the only thing that matters is practice in the field. None of this crap matters, and it’s stupid.

You're not lying to yourself if it's actually better. If you were to give any shooter the choice of 2 rifles to take to competition with the same load both legit 50 round cones and #1 is a 1.4 MOA gun, and #2 is a .8 gun, nobody is taking #1. And again, even if it takes a million rounds to see, #2 is better.

I’m not saying to size down so much that brass splits in two firings, but the first requirement of ammunition is that it loads and goes “BANG” without excuse. We’ve had multiple people at S2H classes not be able to chamber their reloads during the class from dust, water, dirt - always when asked: “I neck size only or “I bumped the shoulders back”.

I'm not sure what has to do with me and trusting a better load more, but okay. I don't know why you're going off on me anyway, aside from an extra safety step of taking a few shots to work up to max, tumbling brass in rice to remove lube, and apparently setting up a sizing die for a measurable bump, I do your painless method. It's worked great and saved me a ton of components. But I'm still going to test a few combos and shoot whatever's better, because it's better.

 

[Formidilosus]

I didn't realize properly setting up a sizing die was 27 trick moves, and it can give you lower SD's, which is an actual improvement whether it's hard to see and takes a million live fire rounds or not.

4fps lower MV SD maybe. I’m saying that itself isn’t anything truly meaningful.

You're not lying to yourself if it's actually better. If you were to give any shooter the choice of 2 rifles to take to competition with the same load both legit 50 round cones and #1 is a 1.4 MOA gun, and #2 is a .8 gun, nobody is taking #1. And again, even if it takes a million rounds to see, #2 is better.

That’s a false equivalency. 4fps MV SD isn’t 0.6 MOA precision. It’s a nothing burger.

I'm not sure what has to do with me and trusting a better load more, but okay. I don't know why you're going off on me anyway, aside from an extra safety step of taking a few shots to work up to max, tumbling brass in rice to remove lube, and apparently setting up a sizing die for a measurable bump, I do your painless method. It's worked great and saved me a ton of components. But I'm still going to test a few combos and shoot whatever's better, because it's better.

I didn’t go off on you- I asked a question, and then you responded with something like- “yeah, it won’t make a difference, but it gives me confidence”. To that I responded.

I don’t care how you load. I don’t care if you get great groups or bad groups- I don’t actually care if you get ammo that doesn’t feed or chamber. What I was responding to was the general drift if you will, back to silliness that doesn’t actually change anything- you aren’t missing an animal due to 4fps MV SD… but you might if conditions are crappy and you can’t chamber a round..
It is a reality that minimally sizing cases makes them less reliable in adverse conditions. There is a cost to sizing ammo minimally (I’m not even saying what you are doing is “minimum”) that was the point that I was trying to get across.


Read this thread and the others titled “painless” from the beginning, and watch how they slowly drift from “painless” to people complicating it… and making ammo that is less reliable.