Painless load development (mine)

[TX_Diver]

@Formidilosus or others.

What kind of accuracy do you expect from a powder measure?

I tried using my RCBS uniflow today to throw 23.8gr of N140 and used my Chargemaster lite to check the first few. Over 10 throws the charges varied from 23.1 to 24.6.

I recognize a CM lite isn't a scale that's accurate to .01gr, but i was hoping to see something like 23.6 to 24.0 on it.

I canned the powder measure idea for N140 for now but figured I'd get some second opinions. Do I have unrealistic expectations or did I setup the powder measure wrong? Other?

 

[Harvey_NW]

@Formidilosus or others.

What kind of accuracy do you expect from a powder measure?

I tried using my RCBS uniflow today to throw 23.8gr of N140 and used my Chargemaster lite to check the first few. Over 10 throws the charges varied from 23.1 to 24.6.

I recognize a CM lite isn't a scale that's accurate to .01gr, but i was hoping to see something like 23.6 to 24.0 on it.

I canned the powder measure idea for N140 for now but figured I'd get some second opinions. Do I have unrealistic expectations or did I setup the powder measure wrong? Other?

Go to page 23 in this thread and start where @Carl Ross posted the spreadsheet, continue and there was some good info posted from others on other powder measures.

 

[TX_Diver]

Go to page 23 in this thread and start where @Carl Ross posted the spreadsheet, continue and there was some good info posted from others on other powder measures.

Carl's data was much better than mine. Another user has the uniflow with a micrometer head and got good results with H4350 but he also had ES of .4 vs 1.5 for me.

I'll look online and see if there's some tricks to setting up the powder measure that I could do to improve.

Thanks for that page #!

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus or others.

What kind of accuracy do you expect from a powder measure?

I tried using my RCBS uniflow today to throw 23.8gr of N140 and used my Chargemaster lite to check the first few. Over 10 throws the charges varied from 23.1 to 24.6.

I recognize a CM lite isn't a scale that's accurate to .01gr, but i was hoping to see something like 23.6 to 24.0 on it.

I canned the powder measure idea for N140 for now but figured I'd get some second opinions. Do I have unrealistic expectations or did I setup the powder measure wrong? Other?

I don’t use powder dispensers for that reason- too much variability. However, somewhere in this thread @Carl Ross and someone else made me aware of Harrell powder dispensers that are very consistent, and I will be trying one.

 

[Formidilosus]

Well too late on my last.

 

[Firth]

@Formidilosus or others.

What kind of accuracy do you expect from a powder measure?

I tried using my RCBS uniflow today to throw 23.8gr of N140 and used my Chargemaster lite to check the first few. Over 10 throws the charges varied from 23.1 to 24.6.

I recognize a CM lite isn't a scale that's accurate to .01gr, but i was hoping to see something like 23.6 to 24.0 on it.

I canned the powder measure idea for N140 for now but figured I'd get some second opinions. Do I have unrealistic expectations or did I setup the powder measure wrong? Other?

I don't have any experience with a uniflow or N140, although I can see that N140 is a stick powder. The standard recommendation is that you will get best results from a powder measure using ball powders. Harrells has a good reputation for stick powder. I've also seen the JDS quickmeasure recommended for stick powders, too. The cheap Lee powder measure seems pretty well liked and that's what I started with and never bothered to upgrade. 23.6 to 24.0 seems reasonable to me, but I've never tested it rigorously and have no idea what my SD or ES is. Using a Lee auto drum mounted on a turret press gives me the following results with Varget:

ETA: Laughing at myself because I already posted it. That's how I know I'm getting old.

 

[Castle Rock]

@Formidilosus or others.

What kind of accuracy do you expect from a powder measure?

I tried using my RCBS uniflow today to throw 23.8gr of N140 and used my Chargemaster lite to check the first few. Over 10 throws the charges varied from 23.1 to 24.6.

I recognize a CM lite isn't a scale that's accurate to .01gr, but i was hoping to see something like 23.6 to 24.0 on it.

I canned the powder measure idea for N140 for now but figured I'd get some second opinions. Do I have unrealistic expectations or did I setup the powder measure wrong? Other?

Powder measure accuracy is very dependent on both technique and the powder being used
I never weigh powder except to verify my charge when I first start a batch of loads.
I would rather slam my dick in a drawer than weigh powder
All my stuff is measured using this old Redding measure that I bought 30 years ago, and it was old and tired then.

Amongst thousands of great groups over the years l recently shot this from my creed using 41.5 of H4350 which everyone says is a bitch to measure
Don’t do what the fudds say and throw light and trickle up, scales don’t like that and you will get really erratic charge weights
This is me loading 223 and I am getting well sub MOA every time

223

 

[MEdude]

So I had a load developed for my Howa mini .223 w/ 22” barrel. Was shooting sub 3/4” 10 shots groups at 100 yds. Just got a Raptor 8 and had the barrel cut and threaded to 16”.

What are the odds that the load will still be tight in the new configuration?
I know… shoot it and find out…
If it’s not, should I mess with a slight powder tweak up or down, or better to just start from scratch?

 

[TX_Diver]

Went back to the RCBS Uniflow powder measure yesterday with staball match. I'm tempted to switch entirely to ball powders after that rather than messing around with the CM lite!! 50 rounds thrown, loaded, and boxed in 17 minutes (I loaded ~260 total over the day).

As I wrote down each throw I noted that a few that stuck and had to be jiggled would constantly be high. After 30 I pulled the higher throws that I'd noted as not being a smooth throw and re-threw those 5. When I got to actual production if the measure stuck I'd just dump that charge back in the hopper and go again. I'd check one on the scale every 15-20 rounds. As I got to the last 30 rounds I started weighing each charge as I did seem to get more light throws at the bottom of the powder measure.

Will be a week or so before I shoot them and I'll post results then.

	g staball match in RCBS Uniflow			Original	w/ Rethrow
Throw	Original	w/ Rethrow		Average	24.46​	24.42​
1​	24.4​	24.4​		stddev.p	0.123​	0.069​
2​	24.3​	24.3​		max	24.8​	24.6​
3​	24.5​	24.5​		min	24.3​	24.3​
4​	24.6​	24.6​		ES	0.5​	0.3​
5​	24.4​	24.4​
6​	24.4​	24.4​
7​	24.4​	24.4​
8​	24.6​	24.6​
9​	24.7​	24.5​	RETHROW
10​	24.8​	24.4​	RETHROW
11​	24.4​	24.4​
12​	24.6​	24.4​	RETHROW
13​	24.4​	24.4​
14​	24.3​	24.3​
15​	24.4​	24.4​
16​	24.4​	24.4​
17​	24.5​	24.5​
18​	24.5​	24.5​
19​	24.4​	24.4​
20​	24.7​	24.4​	RETHROW
21​	24.4​	24.4​
22​	24.6​	24.4​	RETHROW
23​	24.4​	24.4​
24​	24.3​	24.3​
25​	24.4​	24.4​
26​	24.4​	24.4​
27​	24.4​	24.4​
28​	24.4​	24.4​
29​	24.4​	24.4​
30​	24.4​	24.4​

 

[slatebuilder]

After using the method outlined in post #1 of this thread successfully on a number of rifles, I have finally come across one that is being difficult.

The rifle is a late 90’s vintage Beretta Mato in 280 Remington, there has to be 1200 or less rounds down the original factory barrel. The scope is a Night Force SHV. Using both IMR 4350 and H4831SC with 150 eldx it shoots 10 shots at about 7” at 200 meters. Using the same powders with a 139 interlock it shoots about 8” at 200. Those 2 powders should be good 280 rem powders and those should be decent bullets for a 280 rem.

This rifle does shoot 120 hammer hunters consistently at 1.5 moa, so it will shoot well enough to hunt with, however I am looking for a lead bullet too.

How much variation is there in the 4350’s and 4831’s? Is it worth trying H4350 or another 4831? The 140 Berger VLD is a bullet I would like to try too. Any thoughts on powder for that one?

 

[Harvey_NW]

How much variation is there in the 4350’s and 4831’s? Is it worth trying H4350 or another 4831? The 140 Berger VLD is a bullet I would like to try too. Any thoughts on powder for that one?

Looks like IMR4831 might be a good powder to try for 140-150, I've had good luck with it in the past. Also right in there is RL19 and N160/165. If it won't shoot well with one of the Hodgdon, IMR, or VV powders with a bullet like an ELD or VLD, it's not a barrel worth keeping to me.

 

[ericmcd]

After using the method outlined in post #1 of this thread successfully on a number of rifles, I have finally come across one that is being difficult.

The rifle is a late 90’s vintage Beretta Mato in 280 Remington, there has to be 1200 or less rounds down the original factory barrel. The scope is a Night Force SHV. Using both IMR 4350 and H4831SC with 150 eldx it shoots 10 shots at about 7” at 200 meters. Using the same powders with a 139 interlock it shoots about 8” at 200. Those 2 powders should be good 280 rem powders and those should be decent bullets for a 280 rem.

This rifle does shoot 120 hammer hunters consistently at 1.5 moa, so it will shoot well enough to hunt with, however I am looking for a lead bullet too.

How much variation is there in the 4350’s and 4831’s? Is it worth trying H4350 or another 4831? The 140 Berger VLD is a bullet I would like to try too. Any thoughts on powder for that one?

When switching from Lead to Copper I have found I have to give my barrel a good cleaning to get the copper to shoot. It might be the same when going the other way from your hammers to lead. At least worth a shot anyway

 

[Jason Snyder]

When switching from Lead to Copper I have found I have to give my barrel a good cleaning to get the copper to shoot. It might be the same when going the other way from your hammers to lead. At least worth a shot anyway

Interesting. I’ve had several rifles where I switched back and forth with no difference with cleaning or not cleaning.

My current two are a Kimber 6.5 and. Christensen.300 WM. I switch back and forth between Hammers and Hornady BTHP all the time.

 

[ericmcd]

Interesting. I’ve had several rifles where I switched back and forth with no difference with cleaning or not cleaning.

My current two are a Kimber 6.5 and. Christensen.300 WM. I switch back and forth between Hammers and Hornady BTHP all the time.

I've only switched on 1 rifle, a Kimber 280ai going to Barnes so it might not be common. It really doesn't make any sense with lead bullets having a copper jacket, I'm not too proud to admit it may have just been me having an off day of shooting but I have seen it brought up by others before

 

[Harvey_NW]

When switching from Lead to Copper I have found I have to give my barrel a good cleaning to get the copper to shoot. It might be the same when going the other way from your hammers to lead. At least worth a shot anyway

This is a theory that is usually just random distribution and disproven by a larger sample size. Next time you switch you should consider testing it with some 10 shot group comparisons and posting the results.

 

[ericmcd]

This is a theory that is usually just random distribution and disproven by a larger sample size. Next time you switch you should consider testing it with some 10 shot group comparisons and posting the results.

I'm a surveyor by trade, I am well aware of gaussian distribution. We (surveyors) have been doing 10+ shot groups before rokslide made it cool . I may have just had an off day or it could have just been time to clean my rifle anyway

 

[Jimbee]

I've only switched on 1 rifle, a Kimber 280ai going to Barnes so it might not be common. It really doesn't make any sense with lead bullets having a copper jacket, I'm not too proud to admit it may have just been me having an off day of shooting but I have seen it brought up by others before

You should test this again, I'm curious. I had a Tikka superlite. 270 that shot 10rd groups at 1.5-2" with whatever I reloaded. I decided to try some Barnes bullets that had shot okay previously and it shot a 6-8" group. I thought my scope had come loose or something else happened. After some googling, I decided to clean the never before cleaned barrel and try again. Group tightened right up. Weird. I don't have that barrel anymore.

 

[HighUintas]

Here's some staball 6.5 data thrown out of a cheap plastic Lee perfect powder measure. Two datasets. Very good.

Start half full, no top off

SD 0.060
Avg 44.50
ES 0.22


44.50
44.5
44.5
44.58
44.54
44.52
44.58
44.58
44.56
44.52
44.54
44.5
44.52
44.54
44.56
44.46
44.56
44.50
44.48
44.50
44.4
44.5
44.44
44.38
44.4
44.54
44.46
44.46
44.40
44.48
44.36

Nearly full no top off

SD 0.052
Avg 44.55
ES 0.22


44.44
44.5
44.52
44.56
44.5
44.58
44.56
44.52
44.58
44.46
44.52
44.48
44.46
44.62
44.52
44.52
44.6
44.58
44.62
44.5
44.56
44.6
44.54
44.60
44.54
44.66
44.56
44.6
44.58
44.52

In an earlier post I shared some throwing data with the Lee measure and h4350. It was something like an SD of 0.16 and ES of 0.5-0.7. I don't remember if I've chronoed those rounds. I'll try to do that next time I shoot them.


Something I've noticed that increases speed and pressure with the same load over time is the growth of the case web/head around the 0.200 line. This is more likely to happen with the cheaper dies that don't size that portion as much.

 

[Helislacker]

Here's some staball 6.5 data thrown out of a cheap plastic Lee perfect powder measure. Two datasets. Very good.

Start half full, no top off

SD 0.060
Avg 44.50
ES 0.22


44.50
44.5
44.5
44.58
44.54
44.52
44.58
44.58
44.56
44.52
44.54
44.5
44.52
44.54
44.56
44.46
44.56
44.50
44.48
44.50
44.4
44.5
44.44
44.38
44.4
44.54
44.46
44.46
44.40
44.48
44.36

Nearly full no top off

SD 0.052
Avg 44.55
ES 0.22


44.44
44.5
44.52
44.56
44.5
44.58
44.56
44.52
44.58
44.46
44.52
44.48
44.46
44.62
44.52
44.52
44.6
44.58
44.62
44.5
44.56
44.6
44.54
44.60
44.54
44.66
44.56
44.6
44.58
44.52

In an earlier post I shared some throwing data with the Lee measure and h4350. It was something like an SD of 0.16 and ES of 0.5-0.7. I don't remember if I've chronoed those rounds. I'll try to do that next time I shoot them.


Something I've noticed that increases speed and pressure with the same load over time is the growth of the case web/head around the 0.200 line. This is more likely to happen with the cheaper dies that don't size that portion as much.

Do you have a ballpark estimate as to what this might translate to in terms of velocity ES and SD?

 

[HighUintas]

Do you have a ballpark estimate as to what this might translate to in terms of velocity ES and SD?

In my factory 6.5 cm barrel, shooting 147 eldm match and Remington 7 and 1/2 primers, I got an SD of 10 and ES of 33 over 17 shots. That load was hot and had a bit of cratering with the primers. I'd bet that if I backed it down to 43gr it would be better