OCD Tuning Headaches

[CodeMonkey]

Had my local shop redo my d-loop about two months ago. Ever since then, I feel like I've been chasing my tail with my anchor, but I finally figured things out (new loop is slightly longer, but it forces me to keep my bow arm straight).

I should mention that this is a 2019 bow (Hoyt Helix Ultra) with a set of ABB Platinum strings that were installed in March 2021. Strings and cables look to be in good shape and are well broken in and slightly fraying, but should last through September.

Anyways, I was looking my bow over and I realized that when the d-loop was installed, the rest was moved up as well (I had set at center). It is roughly 1/4'' above center now. The loop itself is even higher and causes the arrow to be slightly nock high (enough to where I can notice the angle with the naked eye). When I measure from the bottom cam to the nocking point, I get 16''. Top cam to the nocking point is 15.25'', so the new loop is a ways from center. With all this combined, when you nock an arrow it is noticeably nock high (arrow points down) and is about an arrow width above the berger hole.

The other thing I noticed is that the ATA is about 1/2'' too long (strings and cables stretching?). Brace height is correct. I don't have a bow scale to check poundage.

With all that said, I get bullet holes at 10ft. I haven't tried broadheads or bareshaft tuning. I'm wondering if this is worth redoing or if I should just shoot this set up as-is until I get new strings (or a new bow) this fall/winter.

 

[sndmn11]

. I'm wondering if this is worth redoing

Yes

 

[Mighty Mouse]

If you don't have nock sets/soft nocks tied on the string, you should be able to just twist/slide the d-loop down the string a bit then lower the rest to get the arrow running level through the Berger hole.

Tying d-loops is a pretty easy DIY task...probably something you should learn to do if you're OCD about your bow setup and tuning.

 

[87TT]

Tying a D loop is a must learn for me.

 

[Arctic Hunter]

Dude…you’re like me. OCD…….

Id recommend you buy a press, and spend some money buying the stuff to do all this yourself. I can’t let anybody work on my bows, except my buddy who’s as OCD as I am. And even we don’t do things the same.

In the mean time, twist the loop down the string. Shorten it if necessary. Re-tie your nock points if you need to.

 

[Rob5589]

Just more reasons why everyone needs to learn the basics of bow set up and tuning. Definitely set it back to your specs. A d-loop is a 5 minute job.

 

[Zac]

If you have to have this redone you may as well just do your string and cable change now. I'd find a new shop to do it.

 

[5MilesBack]

When I measure from the bottom cam to the nocking point, I get 16''. Top cam to the nocking point is 15.25'', so the new loop is a ways from center.

The loop is always going to be much higher than the geometric center of the bow. The arrow should pass through the berger holes in some manner. Some go right through the middle or a little higher. Then the nocking point will be set from there........either level with the arrow or slightly higher depending on the bow. Some bows prefer "nock high".

If you really are OCD, then you've got a whole lot more steps to take in this process called archery. And it's never ending.

 

[CodeMonkey]

The loop is always going to be much higher than the geometric center of the bow. The arrow should pass through the berger holes in some manner. Some go right through the middle or a little higher. Then the nocking point will be set from there........either level with the arrow or slightly higher depending on the bow. Some bows prefer "nock high".

By my measurements, I'm 3/8'' nock high and then my rest is bumped up 1/4'' to make it not as nock high.

 

[CodeMonkey]

Appreciate all the responses guys. I'll probably make a trip to the shop here in the next few days to get this corrected. Now if the weather would cooperate, I might be finally able to sight in next week and get back on the 3-D course.

If anyone wants to hear a grown man bitch and moan, keep reading...

I should of started out with saying that this is year four of compound archery for me. I've learned a ton along the way and been practicing to the point where an 80 yard elk (broadside and no wind) feels like a chip shot.

I feel like I'm at a crossroads. I find myself having less and less time to devote to hunting and the outdoors in general. Wife is pregnant with kid two and our boy somehow got her curiosity and my stubbornness (it's a recipe for a handful of a toddler). Scouting, practicing religiously in the offseason, working out, etc. all take a good amount of time.

I'm not sure I have the time, money, and energy to devote to become my own bow tech, but it's obvious that what I'm doing now isn't working either (multiple drives to/from the shop an hour away to get stuff squared away). Also, it seems like anyone who is a decent shot and is serious about the sport works on their own equipment.

I've been considering making the switch to trad for a while now. This might be my last season with a compound just based on the simplicity of a recurve vs. a compound. Hell, I'd even argue that a bolt gun is a simpler system than a compound bow. That said, with a trad bow, I'd feel like I'd need to practice even more, so it's probably six of one, half dozen of another.

Rant over. Feels a little better getting all this out there even if it is to strangers on the internet.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I'm not sure I have the time, money, and energy to devote to become my own bow tech, but it's obvious that what I'm doing now isn't working either (multiple drives to/from the shop an hour away to get stuff squared away). Also, it seems like anyone who is a decent shot and is serious about the sport works on their own equipment.

I'm in a similar stage of life (toddler and infant at home and about to start trying for a third). The closest bow shop is nearly an hour from my house and does questionable (at best) work with slow turnaround times, so doing my own bow work is a necessity for me. You can start with the easy stuff (e.g., tying a d-loop) and build up your arsenal of knowledge and tools as time/money permit. For less than the cost of fuel for a round trip to the shop, you could buy a roll of d-loop cord and a set of needle nose pliers, watch this video, then start installing your own loops. Or PM me your address and I'll mail you a few yards of cord material (and some serving material if you also want to tie nock sets) for free.

Make the switch to traditional bows if that tickles your fancy, but you'll likely find they're not quite as simple as they seem at first glance. The bow is mechanically simpler and doesn’t require a press to work on, but there are still plenty of setup/tuning rabbit holes to dive down: tiller, brace height, nocking point, rest position (if not shooting off the shelf). Arrow spine becomes much more critical, and, as you acknowledged, regular practice becomes way more important.

 

[Rob5589]

Honestly, if a compound is too time consuming, a single string isn't going to help. Will probably be worse actually. I found tuning my recurves to take significantly more time than a compound. Not to mention the daily dedication to shooting and maintaining form.

 

[sndmn11]

Honestly, if a compound is too time consuming, a single string isn't going to help. Will probably be worse actually. I found tuning my recurves to take significantly more time than a compound. Not to mention the daily dedication to shooting and maintaining form.

100% this is correct.

 

[CodeMonkey]

Update: I may be an idiot!

I have a Hamskea Hybrid Hunter Pro. On this particular rest, what is considered "zero" in terms of up and down?

For the last three seasons, that answer for me was when the screw is in the middle of the range of travel in the rest, which is why now I'm freaking out a bit since the rest appears off.

That said, I think the screw is supposed to be towards the top (and the two surfaces of the rest even with one another) at "zero".

Since a picture is worth a thousand words: is the rest in this video zeroed out in terms of up/down? If that answer is yes, I've been losing my mind over nothing.

 

[CodeMonkey]

Since pictures seem to make more sense, here's how my rest is currently set up (first picture). Note that the silver screw (the one you loosen to then drive the micro adjust) is towards the top of the rest. Also, the index marks on the rest are off of the line in the center (by a quarter of an inch). That said, the two parts of the rest (the part that moves up/down and the riser mount) are level/even with one another.

The second picture is how I had my rest set up for the last three seasons. Note that the index mark is right in the middle and the screw is right in the middle as well.

I'm wondering in which one of these pictures the rest is zeroed out. I would have thought the second picture, but I've seen enough videos that have it like the first picture (see video I posted up above).

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I would consider the "zero point" to be when the indicator mark on the movable part of the sight is aligned with the middle hash mark on the stationary bracket bolted to the Berger hole. But the zero point may or may not be where you need to put the rest in order to get the arrow running through the Berger hole...it depends on what angle you have the launcher arm adjusted to. If the arm stands straight up at full draw, you'll likely need to drop the rest below zero to get the arrow through the Berger hole. If the arm leans forward at full draw, you may need to be at or above zero.

As pictured below, I have a Hamskea Hybrid on my VXR and the rest is sitting with the indicator mark 1/4" below the center hash mark and my arrow is running dead level through the center of the Berger hole. Cam timing is even and the bow is tearing bulletholes through paper and grouping bareshafts with fletched shafts. There's no reason to think that the rest must be at "zero" for the bow to be considered properly set up and tuned.

 

[sndmn11]

It is relative to your set up and really doesn't matter. There should be multiple threaded holes for that screw to go into so that screw position is irrelevant. "Zero" might mean the center of the hash marks, but that gets thrown out depending on how someone mounts it in their bow; if it is slightly angled, of it is further forward or back, if the bow needs arrow center at Berger center or arrow bottom at Berger center, etc. The hash marks are simply a reference of where you were at versus where you moved to. Lastly, you can also raise and lower the arm travel as another way of changing the vertical resting point, so there are infinite places the rest's hash marks can line up but the arm still be in the same spot by changing the top end of travel.

The best thing you can do would be to order D loop pliers like a Viper And some d loop material, and make a new one. I'd research where your bow likes the arrow to bisect the Berger hole, and set my rest and nock point to be at 90deg for whatever place I find out. Then tune.

 

[CodeMonkey]

Appreciate all the comments. It does bother me (I'm an engineer) that there isn't a Hamskea "spec" for zeroing out the rest (i.e., "with these settings on a brand X bow, you're good to go").

It also bothers me (like I said, I have an "attention to detail" to put it nicely) that there isn't a perfect/correct way for the arrow to pass through the berger hole. It seems like some bows like the arrow "riding on top". How do I know if my bow wants the arrow to pass exactly through the hole versus a little high? Is that a function of what diameter arrow you are shooting (if it matters, I'm shooting a 5mm arrow)?

If I look at Hamskea's own instructions, it seems like (by default) things are set up to have the arrow riding on top of the berger hole. See the first photo. I'm picturing an arrow in the fork of the rest. It would be (unless my eyes deceive me) riding on top of the berger hole.



Back to my set up... the second photo is how my arrow is currently riding in the rest. I tried ensuring the bow was level (string parallel to a door jam), but it was hard holding everything while taking a picture. Basically, the arrow appears to be slightly high of the berger hole and on a downward angle. I hope to pick up a T square (along with the d loop material and pliers that have been mentioned) here soon to quantify how much nock high or low I am at currently. Is anything here necessarily "wrong" (I especially ask because the current tune yields a bullet hole in paper)?

I think my plan is to address the ATA (and likely the poundage) being off first (get the bow back to specs). From there, get the rest to where it's happy in terms of berger hole location with the T square (arrow bottom through the berger hole?). Then, tie my new loop at level or slightly (say a 1/16th) high. Does that sound like a reasonable plan?

 

[sndmn11]

I would forget every thought, preconceived notion, or engineering assumption about a rest "zero". Flush that stuff out of your brain.

Get a bow square. Cut off your D loop. Find some serving about 2' long and wax the bananas out of it.

Take the serving and tie a double constrictor knot that is snug enough that the arrow nock can sit ON TOP of it without sliding, but loose enough you can slide it up/down your serving. This is a tied nock. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constrictor_knot

Get the bow vertical, loosen your limb cord so the arm is at the top, and get the arrow sitting on the tied nock and the rest.

Raise your rest so that appx the center of the arrow is bisecting about the top 1/3rd of the berger hole WHILE the arrow is 90degrees to the sting using the bow square. If you learn that your bow model likes center of arrow at top of berger edge, or center or something else, that is fine too. When I have set up bows that are unknown, I have found quickest success splitting the difference because that allows a little up and a little down.

When you are happy with what you have tighten the snot out of the tied on nock point. Burn the ends flush with the knot. (Obviously un nock the arrow)

Take another well waxed 2' piece of serving and do another double constrictor ABOVE the previous one, snug but loose.

Take an arrow and nock it or just take a nock and set it on the string in betwen the two. Move the upper nock point down the pinch the arrow's nock. Then give a ittybitty tiny wiggle of the nock to gain about 1/64" - 1/32" space betweeen the upper tied and the arrow's nock. THe arrow's nock should be able to spin freely.

Take off arrow/nock from string, tighten the bananas out of the upper tied nock, burn the ends. This tied on nock set will live forever and allow you to fiddle with your D loop and not lose your nocking point.

Tie on a D loop with it's knots outside the tied on nock sets.

Go tune.

*If you have no serving for a tied nock set, then just tie the D loop knot on below the arrow nock snug but loose and find the 90deg just as described above.

 

[CodeMonkey]

I've also noticed that my rest launcher arm is straighter up and down than on other rests of the same model I've seen. It seems my arrow is passing through the upper part of the containment bracket and the launcher arm makes contact with the arrow behind the containment bracket.

Based on what I'm seeing, if I slightly reduce the up position of the rest (I'm talking about single digit degrees in terms of the angle), I'll be going right through the berger hole.