North dakota mule deer condition

[Brandon.miller.4]

In one aspect rifle tags are by unit, so given a competent game and fish agency if they issue a # of rifle tags in a given unit, then they should be happy with a certain amount of those tags filled. But with archery tags being non unit specific, it’s hard to manage where those tags are filled. What if only 8% (a random #) of archery hunters, tag mule deer and the majority get them in one or two “units”? Makes it pretty hard to regulate

This is happening in 3 units I'm well aware of.

 

[NDGuy]

Separate topic, but the 16 day rifle season sucks. I don't have any brilliant ideas but something needs to be done to spread out the pressure.

Shorten the season or move it up like MT and end it 2nd weekend of Nov. Less doe tags too would help.

Also plenty could be done for archery tags
-Limited draw for muley bucks
-Choose one or other species for your resident OTC tag
-Unit selection for archery tag (if OTC still in effect)
-Shortened archery season for out West

 

[SDHNTR]

This sounds like a bigger problem to me: “a rifle season centered over the rut of November.”

 

[Huntin Fool]

Shorten the season or move it up like MT and end it 2nd weekend of Nov. Less doe tags too would help.

Also plenty could be done for archery tags
-Limited draw for muley bucks
-Choose one or other species for your resident OTC tag
-Unit selection for archery tag (if OTC still in effect)
-Shortened archery season for out West

As hard as it is to draw a rifle tag, I still like being able to hunt the rut. If it takes you 3-5 or maybe more years to draw a tag, it’s nice to have the best opportunity to kill a trophy. But I do think they need to do something about the archery tag, especially in the western units

 

[Gutshot007]

I dont have harvest stats sitting infront of me , but i believe rifles during the rut has way more impact on numbers and quality then archery hunters . Whether 1 or 10 archery hunters on a piece of public land deer are sooner or later going to be pushed to the private land sanctuary regardless . Especially in an area not as vast as a mountain state. . From a NR perspective any-deer archery tags are directly tied to Resident rifle tag numbers . Game dept concerned about low mule deer numbers cuts resident rifle tags . NR archery any-deer tags follow and numbers cut as well . As a NR your odds of drawing goes down obviously if applications are the same . Over time there will be more people apply as NR's and drawning odds will contine to decrease unfortunately like everywere else . I had also heard that mule deer numbers were up 30% last year and doing well. From a quality standpoint cutting NR archery tags imo would do little to improve things. They would have to start with the rifles first .

 

[Gutshot007]

IM just not sold that main reason of decrease in quality bucks is tied to NR archery hunters . Another thought, and some people have strong feelings on this would be "antler restrictions " so all the NR archery hunters wouldnt be shooting 2x2 's

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

IM just not sold that main reason of decrease in quality bucks is tied to NR archery hunters . Another thought, and some people have strong feelings on this would be "antler restrictions " so all the NR archery hunters wouldnt be shooting 2x2 's

It's a complex problem only compounded by multiple factors. I am not against NR hunters. Heck I am one in several states! But ND unfortunately doesn't have the numbers of deer or the acreage of land to support the number of people on the landscape come archery season. I agree with others that a rifle hunt during the rut is most likely the primary cause of dwindling trophy quality, I also don't think oil development has helped considering everything is now easily accessible. Either way, changes ought to be made to better the herd, whether that is through controlling resident and non-resident archery tags through a drawing that is unit specific, changing rifle season dates, antler point restrictions, or all of the above. Something has to be done.

 

[Gutshot007]

Some of it falls on the state on what their objectives are . Across the line in montana they sell mule deer tags to anyone with a blood pressure and cash . Definitely a quantity over quality situation . As a NR i would rather less tags with better "quality " hunts . A little of topic , but here in minnesota we had a similiar situation with bear hunting where the state would give out large numbers of tags and the crowding was pretty bad . Bait pits everywhere . You could get a tag every other year . People complained and they responded with getting a resident tag approx every 3-5 years . Less opporntunity , but better experience . One other thing "oil" . I wish i would have hunted north dakota pre -oil boom . The landscape and hunting must have been something without roads and well heads/etc . One of the most under-rated beautiful landscapes in our country !

 

[Brandon.miller.4]

Some of it falls on the state on what their objectives are . Across the line in montana they sell mule deer tags to anyone with a blood pressure and cash . Definitely a quantity over quality situation . As a NR i would rather less tags with better "quality " hunts . A little of topic , but here in minnesota we had a similiar situation with bear hunting where the state would give out large numbers of tags and the crowding was pretty bad . Bait pits everywhere . You could get a tag every other year . People complained and they responded with getting a resident tag approx every 3-5 years . Less opporntunity , but better experience . One other thing "oil" . I wish i would have hunted north dakota pre -oil boom . The landscape and hunting must have been something without roads and well heads/etc . One of the most under-rated beautiful landscapes in our country !

Pre oil boom getting a mile or 2 in could be a challenging endeavor and it made it so much fun. Rugged country

 

[dirtytough]

I apply in a lot of states and think ND is way behind the times. Kinda like MT. If it was up to me I would do something like this.

Resident.

Option 1.
You can get an archery tag every year as long as it is your first choice in the draw. (I believe Idaho does this) It would decrease archers and increase rifle odds. If there was less pressure during archery it would push less deer to private and be a lot better experience. And for rifle hunters since you would draw more often maybe they would hold off shooting younger bucks since you know you are hunting sooner.


Option 2.
Residents pick either mule deer or whitetail for archery. It would be less crowded and might save a few mule deer.

Rifle stuff.
I would also make a few deer rifle seasons. Have the majority of the tags in October. Kinda like how Colorado has multiple seasons. Make them shorter seasons. It would lessen pressure and maybe lessen the overall kill percentage since a majority of the tags would be during October.

I would make a few tags good for both whitetails or muleys. Spread applicants out and it wouldn't hurt the mule deer population if you took those tags from the mule deer quota.

Those are a few of the ideas I have thought would help make a more quality hunt.

When it comes to non res tags, they should give them 10%-20% of what residents get. Thats hard to do archery wise since archery is OTC for residents.

 

[rackcity24]

Putting a season or two in october with the same amount of tags isnt going to lessen pressure. Your just lessening the chance the chance of shooting rutting bucks. Not saying that wouldn't help the harvest because it would, you would still have the same pressure.

 

[realunlucky]

Putting a season or two in october with the same amount of tags isnt going to lessen pressure. Your just lessening the chance the chance of shooting rutting bucks. Not saying that wouldn't help the harvest because it would, you would still have the same pressure.

You spread the number of hunters over various time frames so less people are in the field at the same time. How does this not make for less pressure

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[rackcity24]

Not with a archery season that goes to January and elk seasons that go into january. It may help some. But there will be people pushing until bow season closes. I like the option 2 he had for sure. That would help. But they need to cut tags.

 

[WCB]

I think a shift in perspective would make the image a bit clearer. I don't believe it's a numbers thing so much as a quality thing. I don't think the harvest stats with archery gear is much of a factor... however, with the large amount of people hitting public ground and the insane amount of easily accessed land. It forces mature bucks onto private in a very short order. It's not like this is a mountain state or even like some other prairie states that have alot of land that is far and wide without roads. Go ahead and find a spot in western ND that you can get 2 miles from a road, trail, or leased oil road, it's not possible. I've bowhunted the badlands for 17 years and the drop in trophy quality is staggering. Again, I think it's a perfect storm of unlimited resident archery tags, combined with an abundance of NR "any" tags that are treated as mule deer tags, pushing deer to private grounds, and a rifle season centered over the rut of November. That combined with the fact that nearly any landowner can get gratis tags and will use "ranching" as a means of driving both public land and his own land to fill his gratis tag. (Which is only supposed to be used on his land). These are not assumptions or guessing either. This is firsthand knowledge and having met many farmers and ranchers that simply don't care what the law says and openly admit to it.

Side note. Trophy quality is diminished to some extent from NR who get frustrated and shoot a 2 point buck in the badlands with a bow. (Not hard at all to do)

The current state of an area that I hunt and hold near and dear to my heart is very frustrating and very sad. It's not what it was 5 years ago. I'm sure the same can be said for many of you in western states as well and I empathize with you.

If the trophy bucks are being pushed to private then they should be shooting them during rifle and the rut as bucks move off private and find does. I get it does stay on private also but the private should be a good feeding source for the public land...especially with how intertwined the land is out there. There are plenty of places you can get that far from a road and you will likely see zero people there...not like it used to be but definitely still doable.

Also...to your side note. Again I have money on it that rifle tags have a extremely higher effect on that than NR any deer archery hunters. Do NR archery hunters have ZERO fault in it...no.

No idea where people get the idea that Residents of whatever state when hunting in their state turn into trophy hunters. I've hunted western ND since the late 90s and have friends that live in ND and hunt out there every year for archery and rifle when they get a tag. They can not believe the amount of dink bucks killed every year with a rifle and saw it coming. I think the average days in field for rifle hunters in ND was like 4.5...that is not too conducive to Trophy hunting or being picking in a 16day season. I got money Sunday of opening weekend and anytime the second weekend the vast amount of Residents with rifle tags say screw it gotta kill something and pop one of those young deer. Not that NR archery hunters don't do similar but I bet the numbers show what side is having the greater effect. I see this in central ND where we have a hunting shack. If I am out there opening deer hunting it is a race to the bar with who shot their "buck" first.

I 100% agree with the Gratis tag. IMO only on your own land for which that tag was allotted to and no mule deer bucks (and for that matter does). I will say it like I do anytime Mule Deer hunting comes up. Virtually ZERO reason or hunting involved to kill a Mule deer doe.

 

[rackcity24]

If the trophy bucks are being pushed to private then they should be shooting them during rifle and the rut as bucks move off private and find does. I get it does stay on private also but the private should be a good feeding source for the public land...especially with how intertwined the land is out there. There are plenty of places you can get that far from a road and you will likely see zero people there...not like it used to be but definitely still doable.

Also...to your side note. Again I have money on it that rifle tags have a extremely higher effect on that than NR any deer archery hunters. Do NR archery hunters have ZERO fault in it...no.

No idea where people get the idea that Residents of whatever state when hunting in their state turn into trophy hunters. I've hunted western ND since the late 90s and have friends that live in ND and hunt out there every year for archery and rifle when they get a tag. They can not believe the amount of dink bucks killed every year with a rifle and saw it coming. I think the average days in field for rifle hunters in ND was like 4.5...that is not too conducive to Trophy hunting or being picking in a 16day season. I got money Sunday of opening weekend and anytime the second weekend the vast amount of Residents with rifle tags say screw it gotta kill something and pop one of those young deer. Not that NR archery hunters don't do similar but I bet the numbers show what side is having the greater effect. I see this in central ND where we have a hunting shack. If I am out there opening deer hunting it is a race to the bar with who shot their "buck" first.

I 100% agree with the Gratis tag. IMO only on your own land for which that tag was allotted to and no mule deer bucks (and for that matter does). I will say it like I do anytime Mule Deer hunting comes up. Virtually ZERO reason or hunting involved to kill a Mule deer doe.

You are spot on.

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[NDGuy]

Pre oil boom getting a mile or 2 in could be a challenging endeavor and it made it so much fun. Rugged country

Yep that put a kabash on that quick lol

 

[rackcity24]

Does any one remember the 1 tag proposal they had awhile back and what the rules would have been?

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[william schmaltz]

Does any one remember the 1 tag proposal they had awhile back and what the rules would have been?

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I think the most recent one was in 2014 and was proposed by the department. It was simply proposed that if a person drew a rifle/muzzy tag, they couldn't buy an archery tag for the year. (not sure if they could only apply for either a muzzy/rifle tag or if there was some sort of buyback in the rare event both tags were drawn. Don't think it ever got far enough to have that convo). The proposal was basically killed in the public comment phase. The ND bowhunters association played a massive role in shutting it down. I don't know if it was put in place before or after that proposal, but I'm pretty sure I heard Jeb Williams mention in a recent senate committee hearing that OTC resident archery tags are now guaranteed by ND statute.

I like a lot of the proposed modifications to seasons. Don't hold your breath though. The only change anyone will go along with is cutting NR tags. Such is their right I suppose, but eventually they'll have to face the facts that NR archery hunters are a small variable in a larger problem. I can't imagine a place where it's harder to make simple changes to hunting and fishing than ND. I love the people there, but holy hell it's hard to find a place where people are more stuck in their ways and almost take a vindictive stance on anything the NDGF proposes. The stubborn German-Russian stereotype run DEEP (just ask my wife, I'm one of em)!

"There's three things every guy in North Dakota thinks he can do. Coach the high school team better, run the local cafe, and manage the deer herd." - Dean Hildebrand

 

[rackcity24]

I think the most recent one was in 2014 and was proposed by the department. It was simply proposed that if a person drew a rifle/muzzy tag, they couldn't buy an archery tag for the year. (not sure if they could only apply for either a muzzy/rifle tag or if there was some sort of buyback in the rare event both tags were drawn. Don't think it ever got far enough to have that convo). The proposal was basically killed in the public comment phase. The ND bowhunters association played a massive role in shutting it down. I don't know if it was put in place before or after that proposal, but I'm pretty sure I heard Jeb Williams mention in a recent senate committee hearing that OTC resident archery tags are now guaranteed by ND statute.

I like a lot of the proposed modifications to seasons. Don't hold your breath though. The only change anyone will go along with is cutting NR tags. Such is their right I suppose, but eventually they'll have to face the facts that NR archery hunters are a small variable in a larger problem. I can't imagine a place where it's harder to make simple changes to hunting and fishing than ND. I love the people there, but holy hell it's hard to find a place where people are more stuck in their ways and almost take a vindictive stance on anything the NDGF proposes. The stubborn German-Russian stereotype run DEEP (just ask my wife, I'm one of em)!

"There's three things every guy in North Dakota thinks he can do. Coach the high school team better, run the local cafe, and manage the deer herd." - Dean Hildebrand

I like alot of the proposed changes as well. Do I ever think half of them would have a chance to get past? I personally dont think so. Do you think there's a chance they would change the season to October?

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[dirtytough]

Putting a season or two in october with the same amount of tags isnt going to lessen pressure. Your just lessening the chance the chance of shooting rutting bucks. Not saying that wouldn't help the harvest because it would, you would still have the same pressure.

So if Colorado had 1 rifle season instead of 4, the pressure during the one season would be the same as 4 seasons? Gotcha.