No Blood Trail

[doc holiday13]

I've shot LOTS of deer over the years. Started with fixed blade, moved to expandables, now i'm back into fixed blades this season. I've shot lots of deer over the years and not gotten blood trails because I didn't get full penetration. I've mostly seen that on the expandables, but I also never needed the blood trail because i've always seen the fall.

This season I jumped into the Magnus Buzzcut. Flys and groups just great. This is not a "Magnus failed me" thread, but of a 2 blade broadhead issue?? Took a sub 10 yard shot on a doe that I was intending as my "earn a buck" (its a virginia DNR rule) and put the arrow straight down through its back. I saw the arrow enter about 1" to the left of the spine and it was a full pass through. Even heard that amazing "pop" . Arrow was full red from tip to tail. Stuck in the dirt a few inches.

However the deer ran into some of the thickest stuff you can barely hunt. I figure it was no big deal. Get down and there is a squirt of blood from where the deer jump and landed and then NOTHING.. not a single drop that I could find. I already had another deer to take care of and I saw it fall. I knew where it was, but could not find this other deer and ran out of daylight.. It wasn't an overly fat or large doe. Only think i can think is that the wound somehow closed up, but it should have bled like faucet since the exit wound was at the base of its chest. My best guess is that between the fat and cartilage in the brisket area, the wound channel closed up behind the arrow? This is my first season ever using 2 blade heads so I'm slightly turned off at the idea of this happening in the future. Next season i plan to jump on the Iron Will train because per my conjecture, its harder for a wound to close up when you have 4 cutting surfaces. This is not a blame game on Magnus, because i feel the broadhead did its job by flying true and making it all the way through the deer. Its more of a 2 blade broadhead blame/issue perhaps?

 

[Samdemarais]

I think blood trails are a complete crap shoot. 2 blade is certainly has potential for less blood and a sliver type opening. I shot 3 deer with a 2 blade single bevel and one was a double lung with decent blood and the other was a double lung pretty far forward and there was no blood. I don’t think that a shot from the top down, through only one lung would bleed a ton regardless of the head?

 

[Kevin Dill]

Good question....good thread!

If we all could understand the myriad variables inherent in producing any given blood-trail...maybe we wouldn't associate a lack of blood with a given type of head or other 'what's to blame?' thing. I've seen good, average, poor and absent blood trails from 2, 3, and 4-blade heads. After all these years of reasoning and logic, I know full-well that it's fool's gold to go down the 'more blades = better blood trails' path. I absolutely have seen deer shot broadside through both lungs with a big 3-blade and they had no better blood trail than just plain poor. It's not the head...and lacking any type of careful necropsy, there's no way to prove why things happen. Only conjecture.

I have enough years of shooting enough heads to know I can completely trust a 2-blade for quick kills and good blood trails. I know a 2-blade will out-penetrate other multiple-blade heads in almost every case, all other things being equal. An exit wound is your best friend when it comes to predictable recovery over the years. I have to go back a good many years to think of the animal I last needed a blood trail to recover. I've watched a lot of consecutive deer, all my moose, black bear and coyote go down in sight without needing to trail. That's with a 2-blade x 1-3/8" head.

I think where I'm going with this is that you shouldn't conclude anything as predictably factual based on one good or bad outcome with a type of broadhead. Failure or success ONCE doesn't predict anything even if we want to believe it. We tend to explain and rationalize our decisions. I was not an automatic fan of 2-blade heads, but my record with them over many years has proved to me they are 100% as effective (or more so) as other heads ending with a recovered animal....no matter what the blood trail looked like. They are the unquestioned benchmark of broadheads and that's probably never going to change due to their simplicity, strength and penetration characteristics.

 

[Bighorner]

I'm no expert, but the location of the wound seems to have a larger factor in my experience. A shot towards the bottom of the lung cavity will bleed more than a shot towards the top. Just like poking a hole in a milk jug.

 

[wildwilderness]

For deer I definitely prefer a bigger cut than smaller- even if it’s anecdotal evidence supporting that reason.

Confidence in your setup is important in archery. I have shot a few animals with a small 2 blade and was not impressed with the blood trail or effect on the animal. One was a feral goat in HI and I hit back- guts. Yes it was a poor shot but my first recurve hunt. A large 2” cut back there would have made a difference.

If going for deeper penetration I prefer a small 3 blade like a wac’em, or at least something with bleeders. I have used the iron wills with good results, and can see the bleeder cut on the entry/exit. I think the extra cutting will offset any minimum penetration loss

That also brings up the blade sharpness- super scary scalpel sharp will bleed more every time…. Which takes me to another tangent - Can single bevels be as sharp as double?

 

[cured_ham]

It depends on your angle here. If you went through next to the spine and came out mid lung then that body cavity has to fill up before you really get blood out (barring a major artery begin nicked and squirting everywhere). If you went in next to the spine and out opposite arm pit then not so much of an issue.

 

[Newtosavage]

Kevin is right here. Too many variables with every single shot to reach a firm conclusion.

That said, all I use are 2-blade heads anymore. I've dropped more deer, faster, with 2 blade heads than any other type. I suspect the reason is I'm getting complete pass-thru's with the 2 blade heads when in many cases a 3 or 4 blade head would have cause the arrow to stay in the animal (even if it did create two holes) and a deer with an arrow still in it will run MUCH farther than one without an arrow still in it - again, in my experience. So I want that arrow to go completely through and bury in the dirt on the other side. Chances are good if that happens, the deer will run a little bit then stop and start walking or tip over, which greatly reduces the length of my blood trail.

I will say I've had more deer go down in sight with 2 blade heads than any other. I've shot enough deer with enough types of broadheads now that I won't shoot anything but 2 bladers anymore. The fact that I can file sharpen my 2 blade heads in seconds is just icing on the cake.

 

[Beendare]

Ive been

.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I’ve shot 3 blades for 30 years and haven’t seen a reason to change. They’ve produced some great blood trails for me over the years.

 

[4fletch]

Sometimes the gear does its job, the hunter does his job and one of those rare head scratching moments happens. Something moved just right and you are without a blood trail.

 

[Kevin Dill]

A straight down shot which misses the spine (to left or right) typically will only get one lung. If a major vessel isn't severed, you have a deer which isn't hemorrhaging to death quickly and has enough remaining lung capacity to live long enough to escape the area. Whether or not the broadhead hits a major vessel is pretty much a lottery draw. I've shot plenty of big game animals 'perfectly' (per shot placement) and had them go hundreds of yards before they are down. A similar hit and the next animal is down in 5 seconds or so. The difference is invariably whether a major vessel gets cut, thus dropping their blood pressure rapidly and severely to the point of collapse.

When it comes to blood trails, gravity is both a friend and enemy. Internal blood (bleeding) naturally goes to the lowest spot in any given cavity. A low exit wound typically means a good blood trail. Except don't forget that gravity and internal pressure will also sometimes push organs, fat or other internal 'plugs' into the exit wound. If there isn't massive internal bleeding, you have a deer which runs off dropping little or no blood and maybe isn't located.

These are just a few of the many things which will affect blood trails in terms of quality, continuity and distance, along with the ultimate likelihood of successful recovery. The number of broadhead blades often has very little to do with it.

 

[Titan_Bow]

Did you not find the deer?
Like others have said, it’s a crap shoot, there’s just too many variables. I’ve shot a lot of deer over the years, many with 2 blades out of a longbow. I’ve also shot deer and elk with a modern compound with G5 Stryker 3 blades, and shot a couple deer with Rage broadheads.
In my experience, out of a quiet longbow, many deer never knew they were hit and either ambled off slowly or bolted a short distance and stopped. I think a 2 blade just zips through so fast that it doesn’t really spook them. When that happens, you can get some amazing blood trails, but also when that happens you usually see them fall.
My worst blood trails consistently come from a 3 blade out of my compound. I think that has a lot to do with the sound of the compound being louder but also the feeling of that broadhead having to punch through.
My best blood trail to date where I didn’t see the deer fall was with a Rage. It looked downright medieval there was so much blood. I’m actually headed out next to hunt deer and will be carrying Sevr’s with my compound and 150gr cutthroats with my longbow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kevin Dill]

That also brings up the blade sharpness- super scary scalpel sharp will bleed more every time…. Which takes me to another tangent - Can single bevels be as sharp as double?

How about asking it the other way? 2-bevel blades obviously have 2 bevels meeting to create the edge angle. Single bevel blades have one bevel and the end result is typically a steeper or narrower angle at the final edge. I don't think anybody here has a way of measuring or proving relative sharpness in a comparison, but it's commonly accepted (in the blade world anyway) that a single bevel and smaller / steeper angle allows for a greater degree of final sharpness. There's always some debate about the durability of such an edge, but it's really not an issue with broadheads due to their one-cut-and-done (until resharpened) purpose.

Understanding Single and Double Bevel Knives

Ask any professional chef about the most important feature of their knives and they will most likely say their level of sharpness. Sharp knives allow chefs to make the right cuts to produce beautiful dishes, both in terms of presentation and flavor.

kamikoto.com

Having used a really good single bevel knife in the kitchen, those are truly the sharpest edge imaginable. You can literally shave a slice of transparent skin off your fingertip with one pass of the blade.

Back to broadheads: I shot 2-bevel heads for 35 years and could always get them shaving sharp, which is definitely sharp enough for our purposes. I've been shooting single bevel heads for over a decade and I get them just as shaving sharp...maybe even better it seems...than the 2-bevel heads I used. Most of it boils down to knowledge and technique, as a single bevel blade does get sharpened differently in order to get the maximum degree of sharpness.

 

[wildwilderness]

How about asking it the other way? 2-bevel blades obviously have 2 bevels meeting to create the edge angle. Single bevel blades have one bevel and the end result is typically a steeper or narrower angle at the final edge. I don't think anybody here has a way of measuring or proving relative sharpness in a comparison, but it's commonly accepted (in the blade world anyway) that a single bevel and smaller / steeper angle allows for a greater degree of final sharpness. There's always some debate about the durability of such an edge, but it's really not an issue with broadheads due to their one-cut-and-done (until resharpened) purpose.

Understanding Single and Double Bevel Knives

Ask any professional chef about the most important feature of their knives and they will most likely say their level of sharpness. Sharp knives allow chefs to make the right cuts to produce beautiful dishes, both in terms of presentation and flavor.

kamikoto.com

Having used a really good single bevel knife in the kitchen, those are truly the sharpest edge imaginable. You can literally shave a slice of transparent skin off your fingertip with one pass of the blade.

Back to broadheads: I shot 2-bevel heads for 35 years and could always get them shaving sharp, which is definitely sharp enough for our purposes. I've been shooting single bevel heads for over a decade and I get them just as shaving sharp...maybe even better it seems...than the 2-bevel heads I used. Most of it boils down to knowledge and technique, as a single bevel blade does get sharpened differently in order to get the maximum degree of sharpness.

So what's your current broadhead of choice?

 

[Kevin Dill]

So what's your current broadhead of choice?

Abowyer Wapiti 175 gr x 12 years.

 

[DeerCatcherUT/CO]

If you lunged him and didn’t hit other vitals or an artery they don’t really bleed not even with a rifle. Both of these were double lunged with a 7mm and didn’t bleed a drop until I moved them after they were dead. Both went about 40 yards

 

[loganwayne]

in the last 2 seasons ive shot 5 deer with single bevels. its been 50/50 on blood trials. 3 were double lungs, one a heart shot all of there i saw drop or were close enough i heard them crash and walked right to with out needing to blood trail (to me this is good as im red/green color blind). the 5th deer i never found, didn't find arrow, and only found a pin prick of blood at hit sight with my buddy helping look for blood and the deer. i still dont know what happened, only thing i can figure is it was quartered to me and when i shot she dropped and turned and i hit shoulder? but when she ran off i didnt see arrow sticking out of her and arrow was heavy enough it should have at least got through one shoulder.

 

[TxxAgg]

Had something similar happen this year. I was using a very sharp Ace two blade. Luckily the doe only ran about 25 yds and tipped over. Zero blood. The exit can be seen below.

On the other hand, I shot a pig in a similar spot with a sharp Ace two blade and it bled like crazy.

 

[cuttiebrownbow]

For whitetails I struggle with the fixed vs mechanical. Mechanicals are tough to beat with well placed shots (anything besides heavy bone) but I do have more confidence in fixed for certain situations. In my experience mechanicals typically leave a better blood trail.

 

[Beendare]

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