NM Bill with NR Allotments

[JPD350]

At face value 10% is better than 6% but you will also get a fair share of outfitter pool guys applying in that 10% so it probably will balance out and be very similar to present for odds.
90/10 only draws from half of all tags, before the draw over 50% of all tags go to LO's so look for the cost to go up on LO tags, even though I bet they will be gobbled up like a pack of coyotes on a gut shot deer.

 

[Steven.Elmore]

Two articles on it..

https://www.lascrucesbulletin.com/stories/its-a-bad-idea-to-revise-elk-hunting-process,5500

Loss of EPLUS elk permits will cost NM communities - New Mexico news - NewsLocker

I am disappointed in U.S. Sen. (Martin) Heinrich, a representative of all the people of New Mexico, to have allowed a letter so deceptive and misleading about the EPLUS system to have left his office with his signature on it. The (Elk Private Lands Use System) does not discriminate against...

www.newslocker.com

 

[Steven.Elmore]

Also, look at the tags issued last year, residents were given .889%, NR .045% and Outfitter Pool .067%. I just don't see the great benefit people seem to think this is going to be. It's going to lump everyone together and we'll all basically have the same odds we currently do in the NR pool. Residents will benefit a couple of percentage points but again that's because the "extra" tag rolls into the resident pool instead of a NR pool, the hunts with less than 10 tags, and the hunts only residents can apply for.

Back when it began you could apply in the outfitter pool for $500-$800 and it was a lot like the special draw in Wyoming. Pay a little extra for better odds. I used the two days as a scouting and most of the time the guides were good people and helpful. Now that most are $1500 and up it's not as feasible anymore. If it goes away it goes away but I'm not going to bet we see a big difference in draw odds, they're going to skew it toward residents, that's their choice.

 

[JPD350]

Eplus for many years has been the poster child for tag abuse, while some recent changes to Eplus was a positive it is still far from a stellar program. Ongoing rampant unit wide tags are at the root of the problem.

Nope it isn't like Wyomings special draw, the NM outfitter pool benefits private businesses. The whole concept that outfitters need this pool to survive is a joke that isn't funny

 

[dirtytough]

Look at the numbers...
Tags Drawn 2020 (All Seasons)
Total- 22,371
Res-19,849
NR- 1,022
OP- 1,500

1st Choice Apps
Res- 58,821
NR- 13,353
OP- 9,159

In 2020 rough odds for a NR were .076% (1,022/13,353). The proposed change if say 10% of the outfitter pool are residents would increase odds to .104%(2,237/21,596)

I believe there is an error here. If you look at the tags from the outfitter pool that was 1500 tags. The outfitter pool gets 10%. Your estimated number of tags is 2237. A 737 tag increase even though the percentage is the same? I didn’t look up the numbers so I’m assuming the error is because of cow tags and NR can’t draw cow tags.

If you use the 1500 tag number with an estimated 21,596 applicants gives you .069%. So non res will actually have worse odds of drawing.
I also doubt 10% of the outfitter pool is residents but I could be wrong.

 

[Stubborn_bowhunter]

Two articles on it..

https://www.lascrucesbulletin.com/stories/its-a-bad-idea-to-revise-elk-hunting-process,5500

Loss of EPLUS elk permits will cost NM communities - New Mexico news - NewsLocker

I am disappointed in U.S. Sen. (Martin) Heinrich, a representative of all the people of New Mexico, to have allowed a letter so deceptive and misleading about the EPLUS system to have left his office with his signature on it. The (Elk Private Lands Use System) does not discriminate against...

www.newslocker.com

I don't see anything saying resident only LO tags, but it does somewhat hint towards maybe a maximum tag price to eliminate 10k tags. The second article is a guy who runs a ranch in Chama who is mad that he won't be able to charge NR 6k for 4 days of private ranch hunting.
Chama area most likely won't have to worry still because unit 4 is a backwards ass unit of corporate private land and corrupt family ranches. Game and fish probably hates dealing with them.

They should evaluate the lands they give them to better, but the tag should still let the owner do what they'd like with.

There is a lot of tiny parcels that never see elk that were getting tags before the subtle changes last year. Guys who actively work their land to benefit elk we're getting snubbed. It 100% needs reform.

 

[Steven.Elmore]

I believe there is an error here. If you look at the tags from the outfitter pool that was 1500 tags. The outfitter pool gets 10%. Your estimated number of tags is 2237. A 737 tag increase even though the percentage is the same? I didn’t look up the numbers so I’m assuming the error is because of cow tags and NR can’t draw cow tags.

If you use the 1500 tag number with an estimated 21,596 applicants gives you .069%. So non res will actually have worse odds of drawing.
I also doubt 10% of the outfitter pool is residents but I could be wrong.

I think I said somewhere that wasn't taking out the resident only tags or hunts with less than 10 tags. There's some slippage there. That was the thought, the outfitter pool didn't use 10% of the tags and they got kicked back over to the resident pool. Again using rough numbers but if 1,022 is 6% of the tags available to non residents then 1,703 would be 10%, correct? I think someone in a prior post suggested up to 10% were residents.


I should have said I treated it like the special draw. If I had the extra money and wanted to try for a lower odds tag I'd enter the outfitter pool and help increase the odds in the NR pool. It's just a matter of playing the game by the rules that are dealt. They change the rules we'll deal with it. I just don't think it's this great deal for NR that everyone thinks it is. I don't think Outfitters need it either, it's more of a value to NR than it is to them. Most legitimate outfitters either have private ground or access to Eplus UW tags anyway so I don't think it's going to affect them a whole lot other than they'll have a few less guides employed to handle the two day contracts. In the end it's only a few less dollars for the outfitter and a few less jobs.

 

[Steven.Elmore]

The resident only LO tags were in a conversation online I believe, I'll look for the link but it was some time last year. I think the gist of it was to include them in a resident only draw pool and pay a base price to the LO.

I completely agree on the eplus system. It was definitely a sham in the beginning with certain people getting more tags based on who they were and knew. Unit 9 was a prime example of this, the eplus uw tags decimated that unit. I think it's gotten better since it's inception and they made adjustments this past year to improve it as well. Again, playing within the rules, I've used all those tools to have a tag in NM nearly every year.

 

[JPD350]

Nothing wrong with using the system as it is and I don't fault the outfitters, LO's, NR's or anybody for working it but I am all in for changing things up.

 

[Brushhawg]

Wow. Did anyone else notice who drafted and is pushing this bill?

Wildearth Guardians and Defenders of Wildlife

These 2 groups are not hunting or conservation organizations.

It sure doesn't take long to descend into a squabble over a few tags. Regardless of what side of the great tag debate you fall on, this is not a good bill for sportsmen or conservation.

Senate Bill 312 Fact Sheet

Changes mission of game and fish.

Shifts to focus on all wildlife species as opposed to game.

Wildlife is defined in the bill as any species including wolves, reptiles, jumping mouse etc.

Endangered and other wildlife species are already managed by the USFWS and covered under the ESA.

Bill was created with broad support of environmental non hunting groups.

Defenders of Wildlife was instrumental in pushing for reintroduction of wolves in Colorado

Defenders is a continued player in filing lawsuits continuing to keep grizzlies and wolves on the endangered species list and out of state management in the Northern Rockies. Even though both are well above management objectives.

Wildearth Guardians was instrumental in lawsuit regarding Mexican Spotted Owl and shutting down our national forest operations.

NM Wild and Sierra Club have aspects of them that are good, but again, they are not hunting groups. And are pro wolf.

Not sure about the others.

There were no other sportsmen’s groups supporting this bill or involved in the writing of this bill.

Changes name of Game and Fish to Wildlife Conservation with a cost of at least $1 million to the general taxpayer.

General Taxpayer will need to provide funding of $1 million per year for species of management concern.

Eliminates outfitter pool and 48 hour requirement. This could force the outfitters to compete, however, not sure of impacts to resident hunting opportunity.

Eliminates Jennings Law (although I can figure out where this exact wording is in the bill).

Expands NM definition of waste of game to prohibit leaving edible parts of bear, cougar and javelina in the field.

Designates commissioners to be appointed from various counties through New Mexico on an equitable basis.

Gives commission full authority to protect species of greatest concern and do whatever is necessary to protect.

Outdoor Recreation Board

The monies to pay for wildlife species and game species appear to be mixed. Thus a wildlife conservation fund is set up but is funded by licensed hunters and anglers.



Original legislation

Gives commission complete authority to manage game populations in the state including setting population objectives and bag limits.

Commission has full power to close hunting seasons due to fire danger, full authority to set all rules related to game and fish, permitting of outfitters and protected species, etc.

Language appears to give game and fish the authority to authorize game parks behind closed fences and allows the wildlife to be owned by the property owner.

 

[Legend]

Wow. Did anyone else notice who drafted and is pushing this bill?

Wildearth Guardians and Defenders of Wildlife

These 2 groups are not hunting or conservation organizations.

It sure doesn't take long to descend into a squabble over a few tags. Regardless of what side of the great tag debate you fall on, this is not a good bill for sportsmen or conservation.

Senate Bill 312 Fact Sheet

Changes mission of game and fish.

Shifts to focus on all wildlife species as opposed to game.

Wildlife is defined in the bill as any species including wolves, reptiles, jumping mouse etc.

Endangered and other wildlife species are already managed by the USFWS and covered under the ESA.

Bill was created with broad support of environmental non hunting groups.

Defenders of Wildlife was instrumental in pushing for reintroduction of wolves in Colorado

Defenders is a continued player in filing lawsuits continuing to keep grizzlies and wolves on the endangered species list and out of state management in the Northern Rockies. Even though both are well above management objectives.

Wildearth Guardians was instrumental in lawsuit regarding Mexican Spotted Owl and shutting down our national forest operations.

NM Wild and Sierra Club have aspects of them that are good, but again, they are not hunting groups. And are pro wolf.

Not sure about the others.

There were no other sportsmen’s groups supporting this bill or involved in the writing of this bill.

Changes name of Game and Fish to Wildlife Conservation with a cost of at least $1 million to the general taxpayer.

General Taxpayer will need to provide funding of $1 million per year for species of management concern.

Eliminates outfitter pool and 48 hour requirement. This could force the outfitters to compete, however, not sure of impacts to resident hunting opportunity.

Eliminates Jennings Law (although I can figure out where this exact wording is in the bill).

Expands NM definition of waste of game to prohibit leaving edible parts of bear, cougar and javelina in the field.

Designates commissioners to be appointed from various counties through New Mexico on an equitable basis.

Gives commission full authority to protect species of greatest concern and do whatever is necessary to protect.

Outdoor Recreation Board

The monies to pay for wildlife species and game species appear to be mixed. Thus a wildlife conservation fund is set up but is funded by licensed hunters and anglers.



Original legislation

Gives commission complete authority to manage game populations in the state including setting population objectives and bag limits.

Commission has full power to close hunting seasons due to fire danger, full authority to set all rules related to game and fish, permitting of outfitters and protected species, etc.

Language appears to give game and fish the authority to authorize game parks behind closed fences and allows the wildlife to be owned by the property owner.

Nice summary. With those groups supporting it I would be very suspicious. Offering up a little carrot to ultimately erode hunting and game management.

 

[Wagon77]

Saw this on another forum and go to page 122. https://www.nmlegis.gov/Sessions/21 Regular/bills/senate/SB0312.pdf

NM is proposing to eliminate the outfitter pool and go minimum 90% tags to residents by hunt code in 2022. This is better for us DIY hunters especially after the fractional tag ruling. So a NR could get a tag if the code has at least 10 tags and there is no preference to outfitters. It will be interesting if this passes.

This is much better for us native to NM! Outfitters got so many out of state tags, and so many residents could draw crap!!

 

[Wagon77]

I believe there is an error here. If you look at the tags from the outfitter pool that was 1500 tags. The outfitter pool gets 10%. Your estimated number of tags is 2237. A 737 tag increase even though the percentage is the same? I didn’t look up the numbers so I’m assuming the error is because of cow tags and NR can’t draw cow tags.

If you use the 1500 tag number with an estimated 21,596 applicants gives you .069%. So non res will actually have worse odds of drawing.
I also doubt 10% of the outfitter pool is residents but I could be wrong.

Outfitters are mostly out of state! That’s how they make their money! Both game and fish and outfitters! It’s been an issue here for years!

 

[Brushhawg]

This is not good for New Mexicans. Handing over the keys to the mission and purpose of the NM department of game and fish in exchange for a handful of tags IS NOT a good deal.

So what if res draw odds go up by a fraction of a percent if game isn't being managed to hunt and fish to catch?

If tag allocations are important, I would encourage folks to go after that in stand alone legislation.

What is being proposed here, changing the mission of and renaming the NMDGF, should be an affront to all sportsmen res and non-res alike.

Might as well rename it Wildearth Guardians and hang on for the ride.