Nightforce vs Vortex Razor

[KMD]

http://forum.snipershide.com/elr-beyond-1000-yards/212747-hit-probabiltity-extended-ranges.html
Click on that link. Read it and digest it.
It offers an excellent and sobering representation of real world group sizes at >1000 yd engagements.

Again, not doubting anyone's ability to hold a tight group at distance when the wind lets ya. There is gear plenty capable of doing that. The wind always and forever will be THE limiting factor in LR shooting.

 

[greyghostnw]

I have. I still shoot NF. But I am a MOA shooter too and do not warm up to a mil scope easily. As far as the FFP I don't need it and even after trying more than a few of them I still laugh when I look through one. You know how the FFP guys talk about the importance of the reticle being equally calibrated on ANY power? Well they fail to mention that on many of the FFP's when you go below 10X the reticle is so small you can not even see the sub-tension lines. Yeah that is a great advantage right there. And if you want to shoot ELR count on the FFP reticle at max power covering up a small aim point. Do yourself a favor and go to a long distance range and compare before yo buy to see if this will work for you.

Just my personal experience and what works for me from 50 yards to 3000.

Jeff

i bought a niteforce F1, i honestly hated it being FFP. it tripped me out seeing the reticle shrink to the point you could not even barely see it. i sent it back. perhaps i did not even give it a chance but the $2500.00 price tag/debt was not worth it to me to experiment with since it bothered me so much. being a 3-15 power scope perhaps was the reason. i think i will stick with 2FP for now. just was my initial thoughts.

 

[Broz]

Broz, are you stalking elk in the timber with 3000yd capable ELR rig?
It's all about using the right tool for the task at hand. If you can't see your FFP reticle enough to use it, you messed up and picked the wrong one for the job...

Yes I can and will if I need to, it is very portable and can be shot off hand just fine. But It will be what ever long range rig in in my back pack scabbard. I sometimes get too far from the truck to run back and change rifles. I live in elk country.

No I didn't mess up, I got rid of the FFP's and hunt with only SFP's now. Works well for any situation. And I know you were referring to Mr Avery but yes I will hit under 1 moa of aim point cold bore a good percentage of the time at only 1400 yards.

But in all fairness you are in reverse now and changing criteria.

Here are your exact words "And excellent LR shooter would be THRILLED to holda consistent 2moa group @ 1400yds in the real world, which translates into almost 29" of shot to shot dispersion.."

No mention of cold bore or 1 moa of aim point. What you said was hold a 2 moa group at 1400 yards. We average .5 moa for 3 shot groups more times than not. Yes probably not up to your SH standard 10 shot groups but we take care of our real long range rigs and keep the chamber heat down. The first one is what counts anyway.

My 300 win just went 22 and 0 for cold bore one shot kills on big game and this is documented. Many of these over 1000 yards including two antelope I took at 1005 and another when they stopped at 1285. This was in field hunting conditions, prone in the dirt, with a dialed in wind correction. Both DRT bang bang.

I happen to know that for a fact Mr. Avery took a bull moose at just over a mile with one shot that passed through the heart. Accident?

Here is a pic taken of my 1285 antelope by a hunting friend and witness. Accident? What about her sister that died moments before at 1005? accident? I could post these all night but do not feel the need. Come shoot with me, many of my friends on these forums have. So please restrain from imposing your personal limitations and skill sets on others.

Good day.

 

[Broz]

i bought a niteforce F1, i honestly hated it being FFP. it tripped me out seeing the reticle shrink to the point you could not even barely see it. i sent it back. perhaps i did not even give it a chance but the $2500.00 price tag/debt was not worth it to me to experiment with since it bothered me so much. being a 3-15 power scope perhaps was the reason. i think i will stick with 2FP for now. just was my initial thoughts.

I owned a F1 as well. hated it for the same reasons and the reticle got huge up on top. I think they have the pricing backwards for FFP and SFP. But please don't tell anyone. I much prefer the pricing the way it is now.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

Again, not doubting anyone's ability to hold a tight group at distance when the wind lets ya. There is gear plenty capable of doing that. The wind always and forever will be THE limiting factor in LR shooting.

Please realize you are sitting there preaching to some guys that do indeed shoot ELR. Have you ever shot with Sam or Ryan? Are you oblivious to some of their accomplishments? Have you seen 8 yr old Jake shoot past 1000?? Do you really think we need to be lectured on the effects of wind at distance like we have never encounter it? Come on !!

 

[Ryan Avery]

KMD, here's what I know. I've hunted in the Rocky Mountains my whole life. Been In the Military and shot a lot! Never have I said damn I wish I had a FFP scope, But I have had a FFP scope and said damn I wish I had a SFP scope!

I have seen and read your link on SH and I still stand by my comment on 1400 yards shot. But I really don't like to bullshit people. I plan on shooting a lot of rounds down range this spring and summer. I will make it a point shoot cold bore shots at 1400 yards when I can and report back at the end of summer. I am no stranger to the wind making an ass out of me. I still owe Sam some money because of that. What I have done is listened to the people who really put the ELR time in and then went out and put my own time in and found and pushed my limits.

 

[spdrman]

Wasn't trying to start at pissing match!!!

I'm not a paper puncher and have no problem admitting I put well over 400 rounds through my rifle this past summer and 90% was in the hills shooting steel in real world situations, dialing for range is easy trying to figure out wind is the hard part and scares me the most. I'm by know means at the skill level Ryan, Sam or Broz is and would love to shoot with them some day I'm sure they could teach me some things to help extend my effective range. I have a ton of first round hits on steel in real world situations and I'm just a self taught shooter, never taking any classes just took a strong interest and soak up what knowledge I can find be research and a lot of trail an error. With that in mild wind conditions I have no doubt in my mind I could hit a moa sized target cold bore shot to 1400 yards, would love to stretch the distance even more and plan too try this summer.

The reticle has a .25 moa open center so doubt it will cover up anything at the distance I can shoot ... probably be weird at first but hopefully I can get use to it.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Spdrman, I don't think that I am on Sam's or Broz's level yet either...... I think you really need to look at both and decide for yourself. The way you hunt might be way different than the way each of us hunt. Vortex and NF make great products. Vortex has put great effort into there scopes the last couple of years. This is a great time to be in the market for a scope. Let us know what you decide.

 

[KMD]

KMD, here's what I know. I've hunted in the Rocky Mountains my whole life. Been In the Military and shot a lot! Never have I said damn I wish I had a FFP scope, But I have had a FFP scope and said damn I wish I had a SFP scope!

I have seen and read your link on SH and I still stand by my comment on 1400 yards shot. But I really don't like to bullshit people. I plan on shooting a lot of rounds down range this spring and summer. I will make it a point shoot cold bore shots at 1400 yards when I can and report back at the end of summer. I am no stranger to the wind making an ass out of me. I still owe Sam some money because of that. What I have done is listened to the people who really put the ELR time in and then went out and put my own time in and found and pushed my limits.

Well guys, I didn't want to start a pissing match either, and I think the topic was initially about FFP or SFP reticles.
Guess I should have simply stated that, a FFP does not inhibit target engagement at long range, notably in a LR hunting scenario.
And here's something to look at to prove that, in my opinion:
http://www.premierreticles.com/pdfs/2009-5-25xxGen2XR.pdf
Notice, that the reticle thickness of this FFP reticle is .025mrad (reference measurement 'K')
so, lets break this down
@1000yds, 1.0mrad =36"
@1000yds, .25mrad is 1/4 that subtension, or 9"
Now, break it down to the tenth, and you have .025mrad subtending 0.9" @ 1000yds.

Which, in turn, translates to: @ 1000yds, the aiming point of this FFP reticle would cover ONLY 0.9" of the target

So, lets skip credentials and focus on explaining how a reticle that covers less than AN INCH of target @ 1000yds is "TOO THICK"?
That is what tripped my BS meter in the first place. Credentials notwithstanding...

I will maintain that reticles are tools, you pick the right one for the job and you'll get the results you want. The argument between FFP and SFP is not as cut & dried as was made out above.


Unfortunately, this has degraded into chest beating, where the fact above has been lost.
Everyone has their preferences, and I'm not denying anyone their's. Just that I happen to not agree with the reasoning behind them, and stated as such.
Can that not be done without the chest beating in response? As if you are the only LR shooters here qualified to share an opinion?

Like I said, I didn't mean to piss in your Cheerios, guys. There never is any right or wrong in gear choice, just personal preference. I happen to think that a FFP reticle covering less than 1" @ 1000yds is not "too thick" for LR shooting.

Thanks for your service Ryan...

 

[KMD]

I have. I still shoot NF. But I am a MOA shooter too and do not warm up to a mil scope easily. As far as the FFP I don't need it and even after trying more than a few of them I still laugh when I look through one. You know how the FFP guys talk about the importance of the reticle being equally calibrated on ANY power? Well they fail to mention that on many of the FFP's when you go below 10X the reticle is so small you can not even see the sub-tension lines. Yeah that is a great advantage right there. And if you want to shoot ELR count on the FFP reticle at max power covering up a small aim point. Do yourself a favor and go to a long distance range and compare before yo buy to see if this will work for you.

Just my personal experience and what works for me from 50 yards to 3000.

Jeff

You know what makes me laugh. sir?
When a shooter with your shooting prowess can not understand that the reticle he is running (ATACR moa) is actually THICKER than the FFP reticle I'm running, LOL
.025mrad = 0.086MOA
Your ATACR moa reticle thickness is .14MOA

Last I checked, 0.086 is SMALLER than .14

Again, this is what tripped my BS meter in the 1st place.

Obviously, your shooting gear and skills are excellent, congrats on your fine long range kills.
However, math doesn't lie. Don't be mad at me for pointing out the truth and logic behind my opinion.

So, maybe take a step back from bragging yourself up to prove a point, and learn the math & science behind why your statement above is nonsense.

Take care & good shooting...

 

[Broz]

The MOAR is thicker than I prefer, covers close to 4" at 3K. While testing the ATACR for Nightforce and writing the review I did for another on line magazine I brought this up and asked NF for a thinner reticle. I asked for a reticle comparable to the NP-R1 (their best seller) in thickness which is .062. You know what? They just released the announcement that in 2014 the MOAR which is .140 will now have another offering called the MOAR T which will be .062 in thickness. So I guess the fact that I, and apparently many others requests, were listened to. I also asked that in the ATACR an option of just the floating cross of the reticle to be reduced. So we will see if that transpires. To me the ATACR is not the perfect scope because of reticle thickness, but as close as I can get right now. The 130+ moa of elevation that they actually have is something to behold for an ELR shooter. So, again it is the best choice I have right now. I like everything about it except reticle thickness. So sorry my friend, again your slams and snide remarks do not hold water and you tell of nothing we didn't already know. Soooo hate to disappoint you in yet another of your efforts to degrade me boy, but you have nothing to rub in my face there. I have that all documented in print many times over.

So lets take a look at the scope that this thread was started about and the reticle in it. It is the Vortex Razor in FFP. Spdrman just stated that this reticle has an open center of .25 MOA. The easy MOA math shows it is over 2 1/2" at 1000 yards, 2.61" to be exact. This is what I am referring to when I say FFP reticles are to thick for my liking. Now lets take that reticle to ELR for a 3k shot. That .25 moa reticle is now 7.85" Remember the fence post sized FFP reticle I mentioned for ELR? Well this one has actually just grown to corner post size. Since you are from NY I will explain that. (A typical fence line post is made of wood and averages 5 to 6" in diameter , the corner or Brace posts are typically larger and are 8".) Just to be clear. So you see in the case of the scope we were discussing when you attacked my first post in an effort to degrade me was actually correct and is a representation of exactly what I was talking about. Now, the Razor reticle in discussion is an OPEN reticle so that means at 3K you will be looking at an open space of close to 8". Like I said before, not at all what I or many of the other posters on this thread would prefer for a fine point of aim. And if you wish to cut it back to your 1400 yards where you shoot 2 moa. it is a 3.66" open spot. I don't think many will argue that this is not the best for a precise point of aim. Especially if you wish to hold the standard .5 moa we all strive for in LR hunting, which only 2X the 3.66" open cross.

You did indeed find a reticle from Premier that was fine. But we should mention that is by far not the norm and your example is from a scope with only 15X on top. I just did a quick search and see that in the PMII 5 ~25 tactical scope the reticle is .1 mrad. in fatness, 4 times the thickness you used for you example. Now we are looking at what I was referring to and using a 25X which is comparable to the OPs scope this thread was started about.

The reason behind these thick reticles is the other part of what I was explaining. With a FFP, if the reticle is not thick of top it will be impossible to see the sub-tensions on lower magnification. This renders them useless. I would hate to see your .9" thick reticle when turned down to low magnification. But yet we hear "you have calibrated sub-tensions on any power" True!! you just can not see or use them on lower settings. Yet we pay more for this option???? Now that is funny and has me laughing. That is just the way it works. yes, do the math. Not to mention that as the reticle reduces in visibility on lower magnification, in many cases it also shrinks to only cover a portion of your field of view, so you have this small cross in the center floating there. I for one feel this is unacceptable and choose the SFP that is still full screen with sub-tension lines you can see and use.

My post of my antelope at long range was not intended to be a "chest beating" No, not at all. Neither was the statements I made of Ryan's mile kill or the abilities of Sam or the young shooter he instructs. I only posted those as it appeared to me that you needed to know who you were looking down at, and the fact that these guys that prefer SFP do walk the walk. If my post seemed to be a brag I will apologize to all for that. It was not my intension.

You quoted me first and made a snide remark about common sense. Well maybe things are different with your buds in Long Island NY. But Here out west we would indeed take that as trying to start a pizzing match. And as disrespectful. So "Sir" you reep what you sew.

Jeff

 

[Broz]

For the record I want to say I am also a fan of Vortex products. There are two rifles in my safe wearing Vipers. I just don't want to give the impression I don't like Vortex scopes. I happen to like them and also have some of their Bino's. Their glass is very good and they offer some great options in their line up. It is just after trying more than once the FFP scopes do not work for me. No matter which brand. What I posted about how I see FFP's falling short is not brand oriented. Vortex is a fine company.

Just wanted to make that clear.

Thanks'
Jeff

 

[Ryan Avery]

There is no question both FP would work at LR on full magnification. The OP asked for a side by side comparison.

In the places that I hunt. I am going to have close shots and far shots. Shooting in dark timber and out of dark timber. Shooting in low light conditions. This is where a FFP falls short. All technical jargon aside. If I have to use it on it's lower magnification setting in these situations. It simply doesn't work for me. No chest beating here! Just what I've seen in real world hunting situations.

 

[Matt Cashell]

After taking a few calls/messages about this thread and speaking with Admin,

With apologies to the OP, it seems this thread has taken on a bit of a non-Rokslide feel and will be locked down.

We all have our favorite gear and features that we can discuss and debate, but posts should be kept respectful and positive.