Newb load / workup question trying to be efficient

[bwood1]

I'm starting loading for the first time probably next week. I'll be using virgin brass. As I understand it, I really shouldn't worry about working up a load until I've fireformed the brass and bumped the shoulder back .002-.003 for the first time.

I would like to go to the range once to do all of my fireforming in this brass. So, the next time I go it would be with official workup testing rounds.

Tobe safe obviously I want to start on the low end of the suggested powder charge range. If I load all 100 rounds of virgin brass on the light side, will I get a good fireform? If the answer is "no you won't have fully formed your brass", then my assumption is that I need to make a few trips to the range:

1. Range Trip 1. Load up rounds stepping up powder charge incrementally to find a good pressure for the virgin brass to fully formG 
2. Go home. Load up remaining virgin brass with that charge
3. Range Trip 2. Shoot/fireform all rounds
4.  Go home. Bump shoulders, reload
5.  Range Trip 3. Begin real load development

I guess my real question is: Is there a safe and effective way to combine the first and second trips to the range? So, that my second trip is with my real workup rounds. I'd like to show up trip 1 with all 100 to fireform.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Just shoot the damn thing and learn as you go. There's no magic solution to any of it.

 

[Bluefish]

My process is far less involved. Load a few as a ladder so I can get the velocity desired. Is accuracy acceptable, yes, velocity acceptable, yes, done. Load and shoot. If accuracy or speed is not there then try a different powder.

 

[bwood1]

Just shoot the damn thing and learn as you go. There's no magic solution to any of it.

Thanks I'll probably be the guy saying this in a couple of months as well.

There's a good chance I'm overthinking a lot over here as I am getting excited to begin the hobby, and am waiting for my press to arrive (tomorrow finally). So, I'm really just trying to think of ways to hopefully speed up that learning process you mentioned, and keep range fees, time and component costs to a minimum. I hate feeling like I wasted money or time when I do something, and come to find out in the moment, or later that I could have done something just slightly different, and saved time or money if I had just a bit of knowledge before taking action.

I know this hobby isn't cheap, but that doesn't mean I won't try my damndest to be efficient . Plus, the misses will be crawling up my backside if I'm spending too much money or time away from the family.

 

[bwood1]

My process is far less involved. Load a few as a ladder so I can get the velocity desired. Is accuracy acceptable, yes, velocity acceptable, yes, done. Load and shoot. If accuracy or speed is not there then try a different powder.

Would you say that, initially at least, you don't worry about performance of virgin brass vs fireformed brass in terms of working up the load? I should just start at what I referred to as "trip 3" and start working up the load with the new brass. Then on the next trip look to refine my load after seeing changes, if any, from the now fire formed brass?

That's assuming velocity is good and I don't need to switch powders obviously

 

[Bluefish]

Would you say that, initially at least, you don't worry about performance of virgin brass vs fireformed brass in terms of working up the load? I should just start at what I referred to as "trip 3" and start working up the load with the new brass. Then on the next trip look to refine my load after seeing changes, if any, from the now fire formed brass?

Correct, I don’t worry about virgin or FF brass, while it might be a little different in volume, not enough for me to worry about. Also not worth the money, ie primers, powder, bullets, barrel life to simply form the brass. Especially on a barrel that’s maybe 1000 rounds of life. Now if I was doing bench rest, that might be different, but general plinking or hunting, not enough variation to worry about.

The only time I worry on forming brass is something like my 25-35ai where the brass comes from 375 win and the volume is significantly different between formed and not.

 

[bwood1]

Thank y'all. Very helpful. Saved me from a couple things.

1. Buying cheaper bullets, additional primers and powder just to load a first round of fireforming before using the intended use bullets

2. Additional range fees from a fireforming trip

Wish I had a little more land to just go in the backyard and shoot.

 

[wapitibob]

Virgin brass can have an impact but it depends on the brass and chamber; my belted brass moves almost .020" and it makes a difference, my 7 prc brass moves .003 and I have no need to fireform.
How you go about developing a load is up to you, from what I see and read, chronos, ladders, nodes and seating depth testing are good ways to spend a lot of time and money for minimal payoff.

 

[SloppyJ]

I think you're asking the right questions personally. I've dumbed it way down on a specific wildcat I put together and found a good load on virgin brass and loaded up 150 more cases. Turns out, the once fired cases with the same load were well over pressure. This is with a short action magnum shooting 60+ grains of powder and having literally no load data to go off of.

Do you have a chrono? If so, pay attention to the velocities your getting that shoot good. Try to match that on the once fired brass which will likely mean loading a smaller powder charge as compared to new brass.

From what I've found, spending a ton of time with load dev on new brass is damn near a waste of time unless you have a lot of new brass to shoot. If you're using a common cartridge, you likely have good data to go off of. Pick a few that are under book max and load up. Pick the best one and load the rest of your brass. Rinse and repeat with fireformed brass but knowing that you have a velocity window as a reference that could save some time.

What you're likely to find is that there might not be huge differences between different powder charges and that your groups aren't as much as you think with small changes. That's assuming you're using a powder and bullet that agree with your rifle.

Dive in and give it a shot man. Nothing to lose but a little time and some brass. Just be smart with it.

 

[Caseknife]

Just start your load work-up with what you intend to use. You may have to tweak your load on the second firing of the brass, or maybe not. Or you may want to try something completely different by the time you get to the second firing of the brass. Don't over think it, just follow good practices, keep notes and pay attention and don't get distracted.

 

[Harvey_NW]

The biggest difference I've noticed between new and FF brass is just volume, that translates to pressure and velocity. It's better to do pressure testing on formed brass. My process anymore with new brass is just grab mid-high book charges and go test combos until I find the best one, then load the rest. If I feel like I've left anything on the table I'll shoot a pressure ladder with formed brass to see where it shows up, and adjust the load accordingly. There is no magical process of finding secret nodes or windows hidden in mythical harmonics and vibratory sine wave movements of a barrel, the combo either shoots well, or it doesn't.

 

[EastHumboldt]

I think you're asking the right questions personally. I've dumbed it way down on a specific wildcat I put together and found a good load on virgin brass and loaded up 150 more cases. Turns out, the once fired cases with the same load were well over pressure.

I’m always trying to learn, so educate me. This sounds backwards to me. The fire formed brass should present a larger volume of chamber for the expanding gas to fill. Shouldn’t this result in slightly lower pressure?

To answer OP’s question from my point of view. I’m certainly not an expert and have been reloading on ly about 3 years, but approaching it from a very pragmatic angle. I’ve loaded for seven guns in 4 different calibers. My observation is that some barrels are picky about which projectile they like. The amount of any given powder that will shoot that projectile accurately can vary a bit, and is not super critical if your barrel likes a particular bullet. If it doesn’t like the bullet you can waste a ton of time trying to find a powder and not succeed. While there is no “magic bullet”, all of these rifles have shot pretty well using ELDX. Also had good luck with Sierra Game Kings and Nosler ABLR in a couple of those guns.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I’m always trying to learn, so educate me. This sounds backwards to me. The fire formed brass should present a larger volume of chamber for the expanding gas to fill. Shouldn’t this result in slightly lower pressure?

I've had the same experience with higher pressure on formed brass. It's theorized that some of the energy on firing is absorbed by the new brass being expanded to the chamber walls, where there is much less expansion of formed brass resulting in more in bore pressure. Obviously the result or capacity of this can differ based on tolerances.

 

[EastHumboldt]

I’m assuming both of you had a situation where fire formed brass showed typical pressure signs like hard bolt lift, ejector swipe, flattish primers? Were you getting higher velocity too?

 

[Harvey_NW]

I’m assuming both of you had a situation where fire formed brass showed typical pressure signs like hard bolt lift, ejector swipe, flattish primers? Were you getting higher velocity too?

I did. 58gr was fine in warm weather on new brass, in fireformed brass that charge gave bolt lift and increased velocity in cool weather. I backed it off 1.5gr and it has ran fine in all temps since.

 

[bwood1]

Thanks guys! After hearing all this I think I'll probably go with 50 loaded rounds on my 1st trip with the 1st 5 or so rounds working up from low to mid range, a good handful loaded at mid range of book loads then have a few higher to test towards the end of the range session if pressure continues to look good as I work up.

Next range trip I'll take the remaining new brass loaded appropriately based on collected data from the 1st trip. And I'll load the fireformed brass down a bit from the initial work up with a few rounds to work up to if all checks out

My rangecraft should be showing up next week, so hopefully I can get out there next Saturday with some loaded rounds, and start the process.

 

[Castle Rock]

What is your setup, most guns have a tried and true load that just works.
No need to reinvent the wheel in most cases.

 

[bwood1]

What is your setup, most guns have a tried and true load that just works.
No need to reinvent the wheel in most cases.

22-250 tikka 8 twist. I'm in Houston (humid and starting to warm up for the summer). So, I'm going start with varget pushing Hornady 68 grain BTHP Match. I just wanted to start with something a little heavy that doesn't cost an arm and leg while I'm doing a bit of learning. I'll try others out once I have a bit of confidence. I want to have a load for a hunting bullet by the fall. I plan to start with 70 grain Barnes TSX for that

 

[Castle Rock]

Great rifle, one of my favorites.
I have had great success with the 77 grain TMK and MK and 33.5 grains of Varget - 3230 fps
Also 33gn and an 80 Sierra - 3125 fps
I would try 34 gn with that 68.

 

[Bluefish]

If you know it’s going to be hot, don’t push for maximum speed. Go mid book speed, verify it works and just go shoot.