New to Trad Troubleshooting

[AlabamaMountainMan]

I just picked up my first recurve a few days ago and am hoping to get some feedback to troubleshoot some issues I am experiencing.

Bow is a Vista Monarch 62" pulling 40lbs @ 28" draw. I think I am technically a 28.5" draw (at least in compound, so I may be pulling more like 41 lbs? It's just a basic entry level 3 piece recurve.

Issues I am trying to troubleshoot:

1.) Tip of middle finger sore/numb: It doesn't necessarily feel numb, but feels like it is getting way more contact than my other 3 fingers (shooting 3 under with a tab).
- Questions are: Is this normal starting out? Just part of conditioning different body parts? Or does it sound more like there is a problem such as too thin of a tab or not hooking correctly (too shallow, too deep, etc.)?


2.) Grip Issue and Pulling/Torquing Right: I have smaller hands (generally a medium glove). I cannot quite wrap my index and thumb all the way around the grip. They just barely touch. I noticed that trying to shoot with just those 2 has the bow torquing very bad and jumping forward pretty violently. It actually causes me a pretty consistent wrist slap as well. I added my middle finger to wrap around alongside my index finger. It helped tame the torque a lot and cut out the wrist slap, but I am still consistently grouping to the right, generally about 4 inches at 10 yards, 6 inches at 15, and 8-10 at 20+ yards.
- Any recommendations on grip modification or technique that may help cut out hitting right? Or any videos/books/etc. that help explain? I think the issue is a combination of not releasing smoothly along with torque in my left hand.

I am currently reading through different forums and watching a few youtubers (Clay Hayes, Joel Turner, The Push, etc.). Any and all feedback is appreciated and welcome.

 

[nnmarcher]

I don't have advice for #1, but it sounds like it could be your fingers getting used to shooting. My fingers get sore after a lot of shooting, so I'd be interested if anyone else has advice.

#2, I would try a softer/looser grip. I rest the grip in the fleshy pad of my palm below my thumb as I draw and then rest my index and middle finger on the front of the grip (facing the target). I don't apply any pressure with any of my fingers or thumb and the bow is basically just being held up by the force of my palm on the back of the grip and the tension of the draw. I think this will help reduce a lot of your torque problem. If you call RMS in Denver, they will probably be able to give you advice over the phone too. The other resources you mentioned are all great to learn from.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Middle finger soreness can be caused just by shooting a lot. Tone back the reps a bit to start. But it also can be caused by trying to let go of the string... the best way to get the string really cleanly off your fingers is with an external triggered shot (clicker or similar).

As for grip, you might try a wrist sling and just let the bow jump. I promise the arrow is gone before the bow affects the flight.

This video is really good for intro trad shooters as well:

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Middle finger soreness can be caused just by shooting a lot. Tone back the reps a bit to start. But it also can be caused by trying to let go of the string... the best way to get the string really cleanly off your fingers is with an external triggered shot (clicker or similar).

As for grip, you might try a wrist sling and just let the bow jump. I promise the arrow is gone before the bow affects the flight.

This video is really good for intro trad shooters as well:

I'll have to check and see if I have a way to mount a wrist sling. Otherwise I am sure there are ways to DIY mount it.

I am definitely trying to let go of the string. I think I went from flopping my hand open to trying to have more gentle, controlled release. Probably overcorrected. What exactly does the clicker do to help with this? I have seen several folks using them. Definitely not opposed to adding one. I just don't fully understand them yet. And thank you for the video. I am going to watch on lunch break!

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

I don't have advice for #1, but it sounds like it could be your fingers getting used to shooting. My fingers get sore after a lot of shooting, so I'd be interested if anyone else has advice.

#2, I would try a softer/looser grip. I rest the grip in the fleshy pad of my palm below my thumb as I draw and then rest my index and middle finger on the front of the grip (facing the target). I don't apply any pressure with any of my fingers or thumb and the bow is basically just being held up by the force of my palm on the back of the grip and the tension of the draw. I think this will help reduce a lot of your torque problem. If you call RMS in Denver, they will probably be able to give you advice over the phone too. The other resources you mentioned are all great to learn from.

From what you are saying, it sounds like I may have been too relaxed in the beginning which I am assuming is why the bow was jumping forward so bad and lead to some wrist slaps. After thinking about it, I think I am anticipating the wrist slap and tensing up just before the release causing even more torque. And I am going to check that video on lunch! Thanks!

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

I'll have to check and see if I have a way to mount a wrist sling. Otherwise I am sure there are ways to DIY mount it.

I am definitely trying to let go of the string. I think I went from flopping my hand open to trying to have more gentle, controlled release. Probably overcorrected. What exactly does the clicker do to help with this? I have seen several folks using them. Definitely not opposed to adding one. I just don't fully understand them yet. And thank you for the video. I am going to watch on lunch break!

Properly used, a clicker will send a subconscious command to your forearm to relax, rather than "open". This lets the string push your fingers out of the way instead of trying to open them. In that video I posted above Tom Clum talks about this towards the end.

Also, get a freaking arm guard so you don't have to be worried about the string. That alone can cause you to completely miss the target over time. In archery, your mind is at some point going to start trying to convince you that bad things happen when the bow goes off, don't give it ammunition to win that argument.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Properly used, a clicker will send a subconscious command to your forearm to relax, rather than "open". This lets the string push your fingers out of the way instead of trying to open them. In that video I posted above Tom Clum talks about this towards the end.

Also, get a freaking arm guard so you don't have to be worried about the string. That alone can cause you to completely miss the target over time. In archery, your mind is at some point going to start trying to convince you that bad things happen when the bow goes off, don't give it ammunition to win that argument.

Oh I ordered an arm guard this morning. I learned a big lesson (several times). I’m slowly working through Toms video. Already figuring out a few area I need to work on with back tension.

Does a clicker still work if I am string walking or does that angle being changed mess with them?

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Oh I ordered an arm guard this morning. I learned a big lesson (several times). I’m slowly working through Toms video. Already figuring out a few area I need to work on with back tension.

Does a clicker still work if I am string walking or does that angle being changed mess with them?

Uh... that is one area a clicker does not work. I wouldn't string walk with the bow you mentioned though. It's going to be real hard on those limbs.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Uh... that is one area a clicker does not work. I wouldn't string walk with the bow you mentioned though. It's going to be real hard on those limbs.

Gotcha. I'll have to keep that in mind. I am not committed to any methods yet. Mostly trying out different methods to see what works well. Seems like gap will probably be the winner.

 

[jimh406]

Are you actually trying to develop "traditional" skills? I say that because clickers are not that. Neither is a wrist sling. If it's just wanting a recurve to play around with, carry on.

If a finger is sore, I suggest a different tab brand or size. A Saunders is pretty comfortable to me.

As far as hitting right goes. It could be the rest thickness or arrow spine or fletching.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Are you actually trying to develop "traditional" skills? I say that because clickers are not that. Neither is a wrist sling. If it's just wanting a recurve to play around with, carry on.

If a finger is sore, I suggest a different tab brand or size. A Saunders is pretty comfortable to me.

As far as hitting right goes. It could be the rest thickness or arrow spine or fletching.

Where did you get that info from?! Fred Bear put sights on his recurves for crying out loud. Paul Schaeffer shot vanes off an elevated rest with a recurve. Oh the horror!

Seriously though... that mentality is rife with a certain niche of trad archers, and trying to fit in with their crusty unwritten rules set me back by 6-7 years as an archer.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Are you actually trying to develop "traditional" skills? I say that because clickers are not that. Neither is a wrist sling. If it's just wanting a recurve to play around with, carry on.

If a finger is sore, I suggest a different tab brand or size. A Saunders is pretty comfortable to me.

As far as hitting right goes. It could be the rest thickness or arrow spine or fletching.

In all seriousness, I mostly just want to have fun hunting and shooting and just think wooden bows are cool and for a lack of better terms, have a sense of beauty to them. I like my compound a lot but have just been drawn to the aesthetics and style of the traditional bows. It is also very appealing to not be tempted to hang a ton of stuff off the bow like rest, stabs, sights, etc. Very likely that my compound is going to get dusty over the next year.

I've been checking out a few of the tabs on 3Rivers and Lancaster, but don't really know what makes one better than another.

I probably should have added in the beginning that I started off shooting straight but starting torquing as I progressed. I am fairly confident that if I fix my grip and release the arrow will go straight. Some of the videos I have watched today have me pretty convinced I am tensing up and having a poor release.

 

[jimh406]

Where did you get that info from?

There are lots of sites that define it. To you, maybe traditional only means it is not a compound. It's not the general accepted definition of "traditional" which was my only point. You do you.

In any case, here's just one "write up". https://wolfandiron.com/blogs/feedt...chery-part-1-recurve-and-longbow-fundamentals

 

[jimh406]

I've been checking out a few of the tabs on 3Rivers and Lancaster, but don't really know what makes one better than another.

I probably should have added in the beginning that I started off shooting straight but starting torquing as I progressed.

Many people who shoot with fingers try a lot of different tabs before finding what they like. If you can, try them in a store since the sizing varies by brand.

For the torque, maybe try exercising without shooting either by pulling your bow and holding it or buying something like the Saunders Power Pull. I know I might be sounding like a Saunders commercial, but they do make good stuff.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Many people who shoot with fingers try a lot of different tabs before finding what they like. If you can, try them in a store since the sizing varies by brand.

For the torque, maybe try exercising without shooting either by pulling your bow and holding it or buying something like the Saunders Power Pull. I know I might be sounding like a Saunders commercial, but they do make good stuff.

Unfortunately the bow shops near me are light on trad gear (if they carry any). I actually picked this one up at a BPS. Only place nearby that carries anything. I will probably place on order at 3Rivers, RMS, or Lancaster soon though to pick up a few things.

I'll give that a try. Hopefully repetition and muscle development will help relieve some of the issue as well. When I first switched to a thumb release from an index on my compound, it took about a good honest week to get adjusted and stop punching. Hopefully the same will happen here once this doesn't feel so new and foreign.

 

[wildwilderness]

wrist slap- shouldn't happen if you are holding the bow correctly.

If you are shooting right handed your left arm should never be "locked" You should hold the bow with the left hand with pressure to the palm and fingers loose. Your elbow should still be pointing left. If your arm is 'locked" the elbow will be pointing down. With your arm "free" you should be able with your left arm be able to move the bow closer to you and away.

The problem is too many novices lock the left arm and try to overdraw....

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

wrist slap- shouldn't happen if you are holding the bow correctly.

If you are shooting right handed your left arm should never be "locked" You should hold the bow with the left hand with pressure to the palm and fingers loose. Your elbow should still be pointing left. If your arm is 'locked" the elbow will be pointing down. With your arm "free" you should be able with your left arm be able to move the bow closer to you and away.

The problem is too many novices lock the left arm and try to overdraw....

I agree with how you are coaching to hold the bow/elbow. but it's not black and white. Some guys have massive forearms, and others happen to have a lot of scapula mobility to get their string side elbow well inside the string. I get string slap with longbows no matter how I hold them or my elbow. I hear guys say it's not an issue if your form is good, but every olympic archer wears an arm guard.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Follow up on what I did to fix the issues for anyone who reads in the future.

1.) Soreness in fingers did get less and less over about a week of shooting. They still feel rubbed a little raw by the end of a good shoot but there is nothing resembling numbness. I tally it up the conditioning to shooting without a release.

2.) I got my grip and release fixed after watching some of the videos shared above and from North American Archery on YouTube. I was not engaging my back properly and wound up pulling straight back so I had no choice but to pluck the string to shoot. Once I started engaging my back properly, it became way easier to release and my arrows starting hitting straight. For anyone having a similar the issue, the video that made it click for me was “How to Avoid….Bow String Plucking” by North American Archery.

Hope this helps someone in the future. Thank you to everyone who contributed to the thread and got me down the path to getting better!