New Rifle Build- Bullet and Caliber- Mono metal- Thoughts?

[DagOtto]

I have a whole new perspective regarding hunting rifles, cartridges and ethical killing of game animals thanks to the guys at Exo Mountain Gear doing their multi-part podcast with Formidilosus. I've re-played those 3 times and actually took notes! I have since listened to every audio podcast I have found regarding sim. issues on Shoot2Hunt and have started to read through the many thousands of posts regarding on this site. Thanks to all for the fact-based effort to arrive at rifle best-practices.

I have an old Tikka T3 30.06 that has been sitting in my safe for many years unused. I want the re-build of that action to be my next rifle project.

Goals of New Build:

1-General hunting of Antelope, WT Deer, Mule Deer, Elk, Moose and Bear.
2-Max range 500 yards. (my personal max range hunting ethic on these animals is 400 yards, the extra 100 is for followup and margin of error.)
3-Durability
4-Backpack, backcountry build- 8-9 pound max weight (I have heavier rifles for non-backpack hunting already.)
5- Suppressed
6-Prefer a rifle under 16 pounds of recoil for shootability, comfort, fun and accuracy.
7-Prefer to keep standard bolt face.
8-Handloading okay

The auto-answer from Rokslide is clearly .223, .243. or maybe 6mm using highly frangible match or ELD-X style bullets.

But here is my curveball- I want to use a compressed powder or petal-peeling mono-metal bullets instead. aka- Hammer, Controlled Chaos, Bulldozer, Maximus or DRT.

Given this curveball, what are your thoughts about caliber and bullet weight?

1- Knowing that I'm compromising the most affective terminal ballistics (wound channel size) with this choice of bullet; does going larger with caliber partialy compensate? From the options listed in the next paragraph- is there a real-world difference to wounding capacity by increasing caiber?

Given recoil and bolt face goals; candidate cartridges in each common caliber are as follows: (open to others if i'm missing any,)

.30 cal--- pretty much just .308 win
7mm cal-- pretty much just 7mm-08, .284 win or .280 rem
6.5 cal-- options open up here-- 6.5 cm, 6.5-284 Norma, 6.5-06, or .260 rem
6.0mm and below cals--- wide open but no magnums due to bolt face


2-Given mono-metal's need for higher impact speed to maximize bullet upset and expansion- (not sure if this is true for DRT but certainly for the petal shedders,) am I better off using a light-for-caliber or heavy-for-caliber bullet? My assumption is that given my max range of 500 yards I'm better off going lighter and faster. But is that wrong?

Thanks.

 

[amassi]

6mm prc or saum or saum improved (UM)
Twisted 1:7.5.
I’m forced to shoot non toxic in CA and am using a 6prc with 100 grain pva Cayuga at 3250 at 4500’ that little bullet carries 2000 fps to 850 yards.
Recoil is easily manageable and I can’t have a suppressor so yours will be better

I’d like to try the drt bullets but they won’t ship components to California so will use the Cayuga

Also have some tipped 104 hammer hunters
I’ve had less than ideal performance from the old hammer hunter but the tipped version has a huge hollow point and looks to be more reliable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JGRaider]

6.5 PRC with a 127 LRX

 

[DagOtto]

I have a whole new perspective regarding hunting rifles, cartridges and ethical killing of game animals thanks to the guys at Exo Mountain Gear doing their multi-part podcast with Formidilosus. I've re-played those 3 times and actually took notes! I have since listened to every audio podcast I have found regarding sim. issues on Shoot2Hunt and have started to read through the many thousands of posts regarding on this site. Thanks to all for the fact-based effort to arrive at rifle best-practices.

I have an old Tikka T3 30.06 that has been sitting in my safe for many years unused. I want the re-build of that action to be my next rifle project.

Goals of New Build:

1-General hunting of Antelope, WT Deer, Mule Deer, Elk, Moose and Bear.
2-Max range 500 yards. (my personal max range hunting ethic on these animals is 400 yards, the extra 100 is for followup and margin of error.)
3-Durability
4-Backpack, backcountry build- 8-9 pound max weight (I have heavier rifles for non-backpack hunting already.)
5- Suppressed
6-Prefer a rifle under 16 pounds of recoil for shootability, comfort, fun and accuracy.
7-Prefer to keep standard bolt face.
8-Handloading okay

The auto-answer from Rokslide is clearly .223, .243. or maybe 6mm using highly frangible match or ELD-X style bullets.

But here is my curveball- I want to use a compressed powder or petal-peeling mono-metal bullets instead. aka- Hammer, Controlled Chaos, Bulldozer, Maximus or DRT.

Given this curveball, what are your thoughts about caliber and bullet weight?

1- Knowing that I'm compromising the most affective terminal ballistics (wound channel size) with this choice of bullet; does going larger with caliber partialy compensate? From the options listed in the next paragraph- is there a real-world difference to wounding capacity by increasing caiber?

Given recoil and bolt face goals; candidate cartridges in each common caliber are as follows: (open to others if i'm missing any,)

.30 cal--- pretty much just .308 win
7mm cal-- pretty much just 7mm-08, .284 win or .280 rem
6.5 cal-- options open up here-- 6.5 cm, 6.5-284 Norma, 6.5-06, or .260 rem
6.0mm and below cals--- wide open but no magnums due to bolt face


2-Given mono-metal's need for higher impact speed to maximize bullet upset and expansion- (not sure if this is true for DRT but certainly for the petal shedders,) am I better off using a light-for-caliber or heavy-for-caliber bullet? My assumption is that given my max range of 500 yards I'm better off going lighter and faster. But is that wrong?

Thanks.

Forgot to ask:

Given the goal of getting the largest possible wound cavity while using copper- has anyone seen any “real” ballistic testing done in FBI protocol gel for any of these bullets?

And why is it so damn hard to find this data anywhere for most bullets? Seems like someone should be testing ammo and publishing the results which would make this entire process so much easier.

I’d pay good money to see different bulllet performance tested in a rigorous manner at different impact velocities. One can even imagine using commonly available 3D imaging equipment to model the wound cavity and measure in total volume. Add in dopler radar and bullet BC could be verified in the same analysis.

Anyone working on this?

 

[DagOtto]

6mm prc or saum or saum improved (UM)
Twisted 1:7.5.
I’m forced to shoot non toxic in CA and am using a 6prc with 100 grain pva Cayuga at 3250 at 4500’ that little bullet carries 2000 fps to 850 yards.
Recoil is easily manageable and I can’t have a suppressor so yours will be better

I’d like to try the drt bullets but they won’t ship components to California so will use the Cayuga

Also have some tipped 104 hammer hunters
I’ve had less than ideal performance from the old hammer hunter but the tipped version has a huge hollow point and looks to be more reliable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the info and I will definitely try the Cayuga. They are new to me.

I was thinking that the 6mm SAUM and PRC require magnum diameter bolt heads. Was I wrong on that? Could I use my tikka 30-06 action?

 

[DagOtto]

6.5 PRC with a 127 LRX

Thanks for reply.

I think the 6.5 PRC requires a magnum sized bolt face which my action doesn’t have.


Did I get that wrong? If so I think 6.5 and 6mm PRC are on the short list for sure !

Barrel life is a thing with those and I do shoot a fair number of rounds… but always like an excuse to buy more gear!

 

[Cascade_Sherpa]

6.5-06 AI (Ackley).... I use Hodgedon Retumbo and get 3150 fps with a berger 140 gr. Re-sizing brass and fire forming isn't that big of a deal and its a deadly combo.

 

[Koda_]

Whatever you do get a 7 twist if you want to shoot monos and you will be able to take advantage of the heavier monos higher BCs. Send a "dummy" round with your rifle for the smith to throat the chamber for best case volume to maximize velocity.... you will have an incredible rifle.



25-06AI, 227gn Hammer, 3111fps.

 

[amassi]

Thanks for the info and I will definitely try the Cayuga. They are new to me.

I was thinking that the 6mm SAUM and PRC require magnum diameter bolt heads. Was I wrong on that? Could I use my tikka 30-06 action?

No you’d need to swap bolts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Koda_]

Given this curveball, what are your thoughts about caliber and bullet weight?

1- Knowing that I'm compromising the most affective terminal ballistics (wound channel size) with this choice of bullet; does going larger with caliber partialy compensate? From the options listed in the next paragraph- is there a real-world difference to wounding capacity by increasing caiber?

I would not go with the Rokslide 223 path, a heavier longer mono will resist wind and higher BC, have a higher sectional density for better penetration, todays quality monos will open more predicatably for devastating wound channels.

I would go with a 7 twist to shoot "the heavies" monos in...
.257
6.5
7mm/.284 calibers.

 

[180ls1]

I have a 7 twist 6.5 prc with 124 hammers pushed hard. It has worked very well on deer/elk and would be perfect for your use case.

 

[Pharmseller]

As much as I love the Mighty -08, if constrained to monometals at 500 yards I’d pick a larger case.




P

 

[TaperPin]

Any of the full length cartridges get my vote. A 6mm-06 beets the pants off a 6 creedmoor, the 25-06 does the same thing better. The 270 and 280 both have large fan bases that have taken tons of animals with them. Even a 6.5-06 would be a great cartridge. Marketing more than anything else is driving the “modern” cartridges that don’t do anything the older cartridges can do to moderate range.

 

[TN2shot07]

I know the smaller the better on here but that seems like an excellent opportunity for the 7mm’s you listed, especially the 7-08 in that long action where you can load pretty much anything. The 280 lives pretty unappreciated too

 

[DagOtto]

6.5-06 AI (Ackley).... I use Hodgedon Retumbo and get 3150 fps with a berger 140 gr. Re-sizing brass and fire forming isn't that big of a deal and its a deadly combo.

that sounds like a good thing to investigate. I didin't come across the 6.5-o6 AI in my initial research. Thanks! I have a 280 AI that I love, so attracted to the concept! THANKS

 

[DagOtto]

No you’d need to swap bolts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for confirming. Do you know how hard it is to swap bolt heads? I'd like to build this on my own. (no smith) as I enjoy the process of building.

 

[TaperPin]

Thanks for confirming. Do you know how hard it is to swap bolt heads? I'd like to build this on my own. (no smith) as I enjoy the process of building.

I’d think you’d be able to swap bolts straight across with someone here who wants to make a 6 creed out of their 300 win mag.

 

[DagOtto]

I know the smaller the better on here but that seems like an excellent opportunity for the 7mm’s you listed, especially the 7-08 in that long action where you can load pretty much anything. The 280 lives pretty unappreciated too

Agreed,

The concept of loading a 7mm-08 cartridge with really long bullets helps me understand what I'm really rying to ask in this thread.


I guess what I'm really asking is, how much can a guy lean towards smaller cartridges (the Rokslide .223 angle,) when one is planning on using mono-metals. Or, put in a different way; How much increase in permanent wound channel does one see between 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, .308, when using the bullets I outlined above .

Along with:

When using mono-metals should one abandon the usual "long, heavy for caliber bullet" goal and go for smaller, faster bullets to increase impact speeds and aid in expansion.

Thanks

 

[TaperPin]

I like daydreaming on the reamer rental pages - not only are dimensions shown, but also water capacity.

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