Need help with understanding my groups

[Q_Sertorius]

Were you getting any mirage from the suppressor? I agree with others that shooting larger groups will yield more data.

Yes, mirage will definitely make it hard to shoot accurate groups.

 

[CoHunter1991]

Were you getting any mirage from the suppressor? I agree with others that shooting larger groups will yield more data.

I wasn’t getting much mirage but there was some. When I noticed it pick up I stopped and waited for the can to cool but i definitely did shoot a few of the rounds through the mirage.

Reading through some of that referenced thread last night it seems like i made various amounts of missteps. I was much more calm and relaxed the sets and was more rushed in the second set as i was starting to bump into my time restraints. The jump up in velocity is what initially caught my eye that something was up but that probably did not influence the groups opening up as much as my shooting did.

 

[CoHunter1991]

I merged the two sessions last night and I am seeing less of an average spread between them then I had originally thought, closer to 20 FPS which isn't bad at all and leads me to believe what you all are saying which it was likely me and my shooting. The ammo did have a ES of 100 for all 26 rounds so that's not great and not what I'm used to for this brand of ammo. may look at different ammo also

 

[mtnbound]

I merged the two sessions last night and I am seeing less of an average spread between them then I had originally thought, closer to 20 FPS which isn't bad at all and leads me to believe what you all are saying which it was likely me and my shooting. The ammo did have a ES of 100 for all 26 rounds so that's not great and not what I'm used to for this brand of ammo. may look at different ammo also

An ES of 100 is unacceptable to me. This is why I reload.

 

[CoHunter1991]

An ES of 100 is unacceptable to me. This is why I reload.

Yeah i agree. i was shocked to see that. Especially in the same box and lot number. Ill look at different ammo.

 

[eric1115]

As mentioned by a few others, 3 shot groups will lie to you. Next time out, shoot a 10 shot group at the same target.

I mean this with all respect and love, do you have another rifle that you shoot well? Like 10 shot groups under 1.5 - 2" at 100 yards? 1.5" groups at 50 is not good.

Air temp is almost certainly not the issue here. Very poorly made barrels can change with temperature, but the ambient air temp is much less likely to cause issues than heat from shooting. Good barrels don't really care about either one.

 

[CoHunter1991]

As mentioned by a few others, 3 shot groups will lie to you. Next time out, shoot a 10 shot group at the same target.

I mean this with all respect and love, do you have another rifle that you shoot well? Like 10 shot groups under 1.5 - 2" at 100 yards? 1.5" groups at 50 is not good.

Air temp is almost certainly not the issue here. Very poorly made barrels can change with temperature, but the ambient air temp is much less likely to cause issues than heat from shooting. Good barrels don't really care about either one.

I wasn't saying air temp effected the barrel. I was mentioning temp because i know hot vs cold ammo can yield different results.

Yeah i have other rifles that shoot well. I'm not sure i have even shot a 10 rd group to be honest but 5 rd groups at 100 sub inch i can semi regularly achieve. I definitely need to work on my shooting though. i think that may have been a large contributor here.

 

[elsb0048]

I wasn't saying air temp effected the barrel. I was mentioning temp because i know hot vs cold ammo can yield different results.

Yeah i have other rifles that shoot well. I'm not sure i have even shot a 10 rd group to be honest but 5 rd groups at 100 sub inch i can semi regularly achieve. I definitely need to work on my shooting though. i think that may have been a large contributor here.

Is your barrel floated? I did have a little issue with a barrel shooting worse when warm that turned out to be due to contact with the stock.

But like others have said, shoot bigger groups.

 

[RockAndSage]

I wasn't saying air temp effected the barrel. I was mentioning temp because i know hot vs cold ammo can yield different results.

Yeah i have other rifles that shoot well. I'm not sure i have even shot a 10 rd group to be honest but 5 rd groups at 100 sub inch i can semi regularly achieve. I definitely need to work on my shooting though. i think that may have been a large contributor here.

Just shoot one 30-shot group. Everything short of that is casting illusions as to what your gun and you are capable of. After you have that baseline, occasional 10-rd groups when changing loads or zeroing a new optic, etc, are more useful. But the 30rd group is the number of data-points you need just to have a 95% understanding of where any given round will go. Anything short of that is like pulling a random selection of 3rds, or 5rds, or 10rds, out of that 30rd - which can be misleading as to both what the system is capable of, and where you think it's zeroed.

 

[eric1115]

I wasn't saying air temp effected the barrel. I was mentioning temp because i know hot vs cold ammo can yield different results.

Yeah i have other rifles that shoot well. I'm not sure i have even shot a 10 rd group to be honest but 5 rd groups at 100 sub inch i can semi regularly achieve. I definitely need to work on my shooting though. i think that may have been a large contributor here.

Gotcha. It can be really tough to sort out what is real factual info, what is stuff that used to be true but isn't generally applicable, and what has always been BS.

Fortunately, a lot of it can be figured out by just shooting and paying attention to what happens (and I'm not claiming any special knowledge or monopoly on what's True).

A huge percentage of the myths and headaches out there are due to shooting groups with not enough shots. A 3 shot group will almost certainly be smaller than the true cone of fire for a rifle. 30 shots (whether it's shooting 3 shots 10 different times at the same target or 30 in a row) will give a real picture of what a rifle will do. A bunch of guys will shoot multiple 3-5 shot groups at different targets and not realize that if they overlay all those groups, they might have a bunch of .5 to 1" groups but the centers of those groups are in different spots so the aggregate is 1.5-2" and that is what the rifle really does. They chase zero around the paper, they think that a single group of 10 that opens up is because of heat, and they throw out the occasional 1.5" group as "flyers" even though it's inside the cone. Or think their rifle has problems when a couple of the larger groups show up in quick succession.

For well made barrels the barrel heat issue is a myth. Lots of guys see their group grow from shots 3-10 and think it's barrel heat, but if you shoot 3, wait for hours, shoot 3 more, wait, shoot 4 to keep things cool (all at the same target) and then shoot another target with a single string of 10 and those two 10-shot groups will look really similar (as long as mirage doesn't interfere with your aiming).

 

[elsb0048]

Just shoot one 30-shot group. Everything short of that is casting illusions as to what your gun and you are capable of. After you have that baseline, occasional 10-rd groups when changing loads or zeroing a new optic, etc, are more useful. But the 30rd group is the number of data-points you need just to have a 95% understanding of where any given round will go. Anything short of that is like pulling a random selection of 3rds, or 5rds, or 10rds, out of that 30rd - which can be misleading as to both what the system is capable of, and where you think it's zeroed.

If you already have a number of smaller groups at the same range it's also not too hard to do some excel spreadsheeting to digitally compile them all into 1 normalizing to point of aim.

Not sure if there's any apps that do the same thing or not...

Can be helpful if for instance you start shooting out the point of aim and so later shots are harder to keep as tight.

 

[joliver2]

Maybe your gun is like me and is a morning person but then needs a nap