Neck tension.....

[freediver111]

So my post about getting more accuracy from small changes had several suggestions regarding proper neck tension.
Seems like the standard is to use a Redding Type S die with a bushing that allows for 0.002" of tension.

So, I went to my reloading bench, measured a reload, and it came to 0.291". This is new unfired Lapua brass that I ran through a FL RCBS die with a Hornady ELD-X in it. I then measured a new unfired Lapua case that I ran through my RCBS die and it came to 0.289". Then, I checked a once fired Lapua case that's been ran through my RCBS die and it came to 0.288"........

So am I really in need of spending around $80 for a Redding Type S FL die and a bushing to keep neck tension at 0.002"? Seems like I'm already at 0.002" of tension with he unfired brass. Is it crazy to think I should be ok with 0.003"? Will things change more regarding neck tension as the brass is fired and loaded multiple times?

You guys are killing my OCD with all this minute crap you keep throwing at me. Who would have thought that a grown ass man is fretting over 0.001" of neck tension! My wife would be shocked if she knew about what goes on in my head on a daily basis with all this long range stuff I'm starting to obsess about.

 

[HellsCanyon]

Two benefits of the bushing die is the bushing will have some “self centering” capability of the die is setup proper. This could potentially reduce runout. Also by sizing the brass from the outside vs. pulling the expander ball back out through the sized neck you reduce the risk of pulling the shoulder forward a bit if your cases aren’t lubed properly. You also work the neck brass much less giving you better brass life. You can see this by removing the decapping stem out of the die and run a piece of fired brass through it. Measure case neck OD and it’ll show you just how far your case necks are being sized down before being expanded back to size with the expanded ball.

Will it make a difference in your setup? Maybe.... only one way to know

Mike


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[FURMAN]

I do use bushing dies exclusively but powder charge and seating depth are far more important than neck tension. I have shot many many small groups with ordinary Redding dies. To me the biggest reason to use bushing dies is because the regular dies set neck tension with an expander ball and I find it to induce more runout just as Mike said. I using bushing dies and leave the expander off.

 

[Rthur]

Bullet release/neck tension is an important part of the puzzle to getting low SD and ES.
SD= Standard deviation
ES= extreme spread
For example-
You chrono a load with proper neck tension practices at 5 SD and ES of 14.
This set of numbers(SD and ES) will be hard to achieve with variances in neck tension introduced by even a slight over resizing.
While these effects can be less visible at closer range they can not be hidden at longer range.
I consider neck concentricity and tension cornerstones to accurate ammo.

R

 

[HellsCanyon]

I also want to mention that neck tension can drastically effect your optimum powder charge weight. That's why I'm so hesitant to give out general charge weight recommendations. Different brands of brass, different neck thickness/tension/dies all have an effect on how much powder you can use to push your bullet down the barrel.

Annealing is also a game changer in consistent neck tension.

If this was mentioned in the other thread I apologize, haven't had time to go through it but I feel it's worth mentioning.

Mike

 

[FURMAN]

Neck tension and annealing may be an issue with some cartridges but I have never had an issue and have never annealed. In Bryan Litz's book he does a test with a few cartridges. I believe a 308, 223, and 300 Win Mag. Annealing made no discernible difference. When I say I have never had a problem I am not talking about 1 MOA groups I am talking about maintaining under .5 MOA.

 

[Idaho Lefty]

So my post about getting more accuracy from small changes had several suggestions regarding proper neck tension.
Seems like the standard is to use a Redding Type S die with a bushing that allows for 0.002" of tension.

So, I went to my reloading bench, measured a reload, and it came to 0.291". This is new unfired Lapua brass that I ran through a FL RCBS die with a Hornady ELD-X in it. I then measured a new unfired Lapua case that I ran through my RCBS die and it came to 0.289". Then, I checked a once fired Lapua case that's been ran through my RCBS die and it came to 0.288"........

So am I really in need of spending around $80 for a Redding Type S FL die and a bushing to keep neck tension at 0.002"? Seems like I'm already at 0.002" of tension with he unfired brass. Is it crazy to think I should be ok with 0.003"? Will things change more regarding neck tension as the brass is fired and loaded multiple times?

You guys are killing my OCD with all this minute crap you keep throwing at me. Who would have thought that a grown ass man is fretting over 0.001" of neck tension! My wife would be shocked if she knew about what goes on in my head on a daily basis with all this long range stuff I'm starting to obsess about.

YUP,.. chasing the "Holy Grail" of "THE" most accurate Load, will drive, a man to Drink, IMHO! Your RCBS Dies, are fine! You have "proven them", If your Rifle/ Load is now shooting, SUB MOA ! Now, "verify" the loads, to your Scope "Hash Marks" or Dial at, 200, 400, 600, etc. and, start PRACTICING, "Real World" positions that, are used in, HUNTING situations, offhand to 125ish, 300- 600 yards prone over, a Pack or, bipod (don't forget to use, a REAR Bag !), Sitting with "Sticks" using, your Pack to support the "toe" of the Rifle stock for 125 to 350 yards. Practice uphill, down hill, LEARN to "DOPE" the Wind ! Get your wind drift charts, made ! A "ONE minute", Rifle, is "capable" of delivering, a 7" -8" group, at 700 yards,.. ARE YOU ?? Most of us AREN'T, in "Real World" Hunting conditions! You will drive yourself "Nuts" and shoot your GOOD barrel "out", trying for,.. PERFECTION !

 

[HellsCanyon]

Neck tension and annealing may be an issue with some cartridges but I have never had an issue and have never annealed. In Bryan Litz's book he does a test with a few cartridges. I believe a 308, 223, and 300 Win Mag. Annealing made no discernible difference. When I say I have never had a problem I am not talking about 1 MOA groups I am talking about maintaining under .5 MOA.

While Bryan is a certifiable genius, he’s not a metallurgist and I do agree it it depends on caliber and the type of loads/pressures being used to see benefits with annealing.
I’ve seen a far more benefits to annealing than not on the larger magnums. 28 Nosler is a prime example.

Here’s a great read on annealing and brass properties if you have the time.
Annealing Under the Microscope | Latest AMP articles | AMP Annealing | Professional Annealing Machine Distributors


Mike


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[Idaho Lefty]

Your 6.5 Creed Load, has, a "viable" MAX kill distance of, about, the same distance as, my .270 WSM using, 140 Accubond's at 3,150 FPS,..
700 Yards, is the MAX, for both of us, IMO! A LOT of, deer and Elk are shot, much closer. Your load and Rifle are ready,.. YOU have done, a GREAT, Job ! Spend more TIME with, you Wife and Family and good luck !

 

[BrushyHillGuide]

.002” neck tension is a commonly used neck tension but it’s not a ‘perfect’ number. The point of the Type S bushing die is to be able to play with different neck tensions. In one of my Creedmoors I use .001 neck tension and in another I use .002 and in a .260 I use .003 neck tension. Is this necessary to get an accurate load? No. But to get the MOST accurate load it CAN be a big help. Its nice to be able to play with various variables to see the effects it will have. Developing a great load often has a little magic or luck mixed in with the technique - finding that magical recipe that makes a one-holer. It’s like having a full spice rack or just salt and pepper. Can you make a great meal with salt and pepper only? Sure. But you can probably make it bettER with some additional flavors at your disposal.

There are several reasons many of us like using bushing dies. You keep asking if stuff is “worth” it. It’s ALL worth it to some of us and not at all to others. It just depends on the person. There isn’t a tool or a technique that you can’t find someone that’ll swear by it and others that will swear it’s not necessary. Especially, on the internet. I’d suggest doing some reading and then determine what your goals are, with your loading and your shooting. Once you know where you want to be, you can seek out what others used to get there. Just asking the general “is it worth it” will only get you both “yes” and “no.” Both answers are correct, depending on the needs of the individual.


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[Neverenoughhntn]

YUP,.. chasing the "Holy Grail" of "THE" most accurate Load, will drive, a man to Drink, IMHO! Your RCBS Dies, are fine! You have "proven them", If your Rifle/ Load is now shooting, SUB MOA ! Now, "verify" the loads, to your Scope "Hash Marks" or Dial at, 200, 400, 600, etc. and, start PRACTICING, "Real World" positions that, are used in, HUNTING situations, offhand to 125ish, 300- 600 yards prone over, a Pack or, bipod (don't forget to use, a REAR Bag !), Sitting with "Sticks" using, your Pack to support the "toe" of the Rifle stock for 125 to 350 yards. Practice uphill, down hill, LEARN to "DOPE" the Wind ! Get your wind drift charts, made ! A "ONE minute", Rifle, is "capable" of delivering, a 7" -8" group, at 700 yards,.. ARE YOU ?? Most of us AREN'T, in "Real World" Hunting conditions! You will drive yourself "Nuts" and shoot your GOOD barrel "out", trying for,.. PERFECTION ![/QUOTE

The problem with a 7" group at 700 is that it doesn't allow much room for error. Steel is one thing, but if it's a deer at that distance, you'd better have your wind doped dead nuts... To me it's worth the extra effort to find the most accurate load possible. Finding a load under 1/2 moa (1/4 moa even better) if gun and shooter are capable, can make the difference between a wounded animal and a humane kill if you are slightly off on your wind call (or some other minor shooter error)

 

[Idaho Lefty]

YUP,.. chasing the "Holy Grail" of "THE" most accurate Load, will drive, a man to Drink, IMHO! Your RCBS Dies, are fine! You have "proven them", If your Rifle/ Load is now shooting, SUB MOA ! Now, "verify" the loads, to your Scope "Hash Marks" or Dial at, 200, 400, 600, etc. and, start PRACTICING, "Real World" positions that, are used in, HUNTING situations, offhand to 125ish, 300- 600 yards prone over, a Pack or, bipod (don't forget to use, a REAR Bag !), Sitting with "Sticks" using, your Pack to support the "toe" of the Rifle stock for 125 to 350 yards. Practice uphill, down hill, LEARN to "DOPE" the Wind ! Get your wind drift charts, made ! A "ONE minute", Rifle, is "capable" of delivering, a 7" -8" group, at 700 yards,.. ARE YOU ?? Most of us AREN'T, in "Real World" Hunting conditions! You will drive yourself "Nuts" and shoot your GOOD barrel "out", trying for,.. PERFECTION ![/QUOTE

The problem with a 7" group at 700 is that it doesn't allow much room for error. Steel is one thing, but if it's a deer at that distance, you'd better have your wind doped dead nuts... To me it's worth the extra effort to find the most accurate load possible. Finding a load under 1/2 moa (1/4 moa even better) if gun and shooter are capable, can make the difference between a wounded animal and a humane kill if you are slightly off on your wind call (or some other minor shooter error)

I'm NOT a know it all, but you might want, to read the OP's FIRST "post", where he said he was a "mediocre" rifle shot and he is getting very "frustrated" with all the confusing reloading answers from, the 1,000+ yard crowd. A "Newbie" cannot "cope" with ALL this, knowledge in a short span of, time,.. IMVHO OK, maybe Deer at 500,.. Elk 600 yards is reasonable for, a half way descent shooter. Read HIS posts as, he sounds,.. TIRED !

 

[Idaho Lefty]

@ neverenough,.. Sorry,..
The OP's FIRST post was 3 days ago, under, the long range Hunting,.. Titled,..Reloading; how much do subtle difference make.

 

[Idaho Lefty]

And YES,.."Wind doping" is usually, the LAST thing, Hunters think about or, learn. IMO, it's way more important than, whether his Rifle shoots 1/2 inch groups or, 1 inch groups, BUT,.. JMVHO.. AGAIN, here, I'm addressing a worn out frustrated, "Newbie" with mediocre Rifle shooting skills who has a LOT to learn. As a Christian and a Hunter I was trying to be kind and offer SOME encouragement, to him.

 

[freediver111]

.002” neck tension is a commonly used neck tension but it’s not a ‘perfect’ number. The point of the Type S bushing die is to be able to play with different neck tensions. In one of my Creedmoors I use .001 neck tension and in another I use .002 and in a .260 I use .003 neck tension. Is this necessary to get an accurate load? No. But to get the MOST accurate load it CAN be a big help. Its nice to be able to play with various variables to see the effects it will have. Developing a great load often has a little magic or luck mixed in with the technique - finding that magical recipe that makes a one-holer. It’s like having a full spice rack or just salt and pepper. Can you make a great meal with salt and pepper only? Sure. But you can probably make it bettER with some additional flavors at your disposal.

There are several reasons many of us like using bushing dies. You keep asking if stuff is “worth” it. It’s ALL worth it to some of us and not at all to others. It just depends on the person. There isn’t a tool or a technique that you can’t find someone that’ll swear by it and others that will swear it’s not necessary. Especially, on the internet. I’d suggest doing some reading and then determine what your goals are, with your loading and your shooting. Once you know where you want to be, you can seek out what others used to get there. Just asking the general “is it worth it” will only get you both “yes” and “no.” Both answers are correct, depending on the needs of the individual.


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Well reasoned response. I hear what you’re saying. I am interested in getting the most accurate load possible. I’ll likely get the Redding die and play with bushing sizes and see what happens.


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[Neverenoughhntn]

Sorry lefty, I wasn't trying take issue with you or derail the OP thread here. I see where you were coming from, but I read into Freedivers question a little different than you I guess. With 2 kids running around I got distracted and strayed from the topic. My apologies.

OP: yes, it is worth spending the extra money on dies and bushing(s) in MY opinion. To ME, there is nothing more frustrating than trying to learn the long range game with a moderately accurate load/rifle. Seeking out as much accuracy as my rifle can provide has greatly reduced frustrations, as it allows me to know for certain if I make any error (wind call, etc) by eliminating my load as a variable. (Hopefully that makes sense) Therefore, anything I can do to further pursue accuracy is a worthwhile endeavor, to ME.

Bottom line: I understand that all of the suggestions that have been made in your other thread may be overwhelming, but note that they all serve a purpose. At the end of the day, don't allow yourself to become overwhelmed to the point that you lose enthusiasm. Take it one step at time as finances allow and your enthusiasm dictates. The bushing die would be a great place to start in my opinion.

 

[Idaho Lefty]

@ neverenough,.
No apologies necessary as, I think we are on, the "same page" ! ( your last paragraph, says it all )
All the accuracy "tips" on reloading, ARE, great IMO, too !
I was just hoping the OP, didn't "burn out" with too much info and NOT enjoy the sport.
Have a great Day !

 

[N2TRKYS]

I'd spend that money on other things, than wasting it on other sizing dies.

 

[KurtR]

trigger time trumps it all. load and practice in field conditions will get you farther than chasing a .5 moa group compared to a .4 moa group. i would say your good load up a couple thousand and shoot away