Mythbusting CRF?

[Yellowknife]

I drew a spring ’17 Kodiak Bear tag this year, and may very well use it as an excuse for a new rifle. Not sure what one yet, but I’ve got some time to think about it.

Of course part of any bear rifle discussion is CRF vs. PF. I’ve owned several varieties of both types over the last 15 years and have been happy with both. However, I got to thinking about gun malfunctions I’ve seen over the years, and that brought to mind a certain incident in with a grizzly a few years ago. My cousins and I were working on quartering up a moose in the alders when we heard a grizzly a ‘woofin and a coming. That motivated some rather rapid movements on our part, and some even more rapid shooting a few seconds later. When it was all said and done, the bear was dead but in the heat of the moment my cousin had managed to jam his gun up tight. The gun he was using was a 1950’s Winchester 30-06, the classic definition of a reliable CRF rifle.

I assumed it to be operator error, and didn’t think about it much at the time, but now that bear rifles are on my mind I thought I’d see if that was a jam that could be re-produced. I happen to have a mid-1950’s Featherweight in the gun safe, so I pulled it out and played with it a bit this weekend. As a side note, this is one of my favorite rifles. I took my first big game animals with it, and it’s easy to see why it was considered the Riflemans Rifle back in the day.

Anyway, it didn’t take me long to figure out that a double feed was easily induced in this gun. If you short stroke the bolt just a bit, the standing ejector will fail to kick out the shell, but the bolt will pick up the new round just enough to produce a double feed jam:


Short stroked bolt


And jammed up tight. Not very hard to clear, but still requiring some attention.

Any of my guns with a regular plunger ejector will kick out the empty as soon as it clears the chamber. Short stroking in those guns results in an empty chamber and a nice loud “click”, but no malfunction.

I always work the bolt plenty hard and fast, so I’m not concerned about it… just kind of surprised me given the reputation of these guns.
While I was tinkering with it, I noticed something else. The "controlled" round feed on this Winchester is really only semi-controlled. Shells coming off the right side of the magazine immediately pop up under the extractor and are fully controlled, but shells coming off the left side are just pushed along until they are most of the way into the chamber. Withdrawing the bolt before that point will leave the shell sitting loose just like any push feed:




The reason is fairly obvious on examination… the extractor is on the right side, and the left side shell needs to be more or less full centered and high on the bolt face before it is grabbed. Again, I can’t think that this is any practical field issue, but it surprises me that it wasn’t as fully controlled as I thought. I sold my last Mauser ’98 a while back, so I’m not sure how it functions, but a goofy Savage with a “CRF” bolt head that I had for a bit would actually do better than that.

I’m still a Pre-64 Winchester fan, but now I wonder if the whole CRF thing is just a tad over rated? Maybe I’m just missing some other advantage?

Yk

 

[rileybassman]

Good info and points here... I don't personally own a CRF rifle, but own 3 PF rifles (one an early 70s model 70 '06). I have actually wondered if what you had described would happen as I have been looking with some interest at Kimber rifles. I have seen arguments for the reliability of CRF, and get some of them, but have NEVER had (or seen) a PRF fail to extract or chamber a round that was pushed from a magazine... I HAVE seen issues where rounds have been pushed too deep in the mag, so the bolt face skims over the top (I have only seen this in unique circumstances, but have seen it). I may be mistaken, but in my mind, that would not be a specific PF failure correct? In theory a poorly loaded magazine could induce similar results from a CRF?

Another thought I had on this was could some of the "CRF for dangerous game" analogy be due to bullet construction ie round nose bullets? Would thye have a higher likelihood of jamming vs say an accubond, partition, or TTSX?

At the end of the day, I think practice with your weapon of choice is the most important factor... making sure to fully cycle the bolt, fully seat the magazine (if it is detach) ensure that in a blind mag, the rounds aren't set too far back, so the bolt fact can't push them etc...

Interested to see comments from people who use both.

 

[Yellowknife]

I HAVE seen issues where rounds have been pushed too deep in the mag, so the bolt face skims over the top (I have only seen this in unique circumstances, but have seen it). I may be mistaken, but in my mind, that would not be a specific PF failure correct? In theory a poorly loaded magazine could induce similar results from a CRF?

I have seen this malfunction it several different guns. Two were Remingtons, and both were related to owner re-assembling it with the metal mag box not seated into the action correctly. Everything looked right from the outside, but they would occasionally fail to feed. Once correctly assembled, they would feed no matter how you stuffed the shell in.

A second version of that I have seen was with a Savage .375 H&H. The mag spring that Savage used for those rifles (at the time anyway) was the same one they used for 30-06's, and and it couldn't always push up the rear of those long magnum shells far enough. I fixed it by moving the spring about 1/4" toward the rear of the mag box. Ironically, that particular Savage was also a CRF... but that doesn't help if it never grabs the shell in the first place.

IMO, if a gun is subject to a "poorly loaded" magazine, then I'm not at all interested in using it in the field.

 

[Ray]

My Model 7 300 SAUM has a feeding issue when I build ammo to the spec OAL. The bullet tip is hanging way out there from the case. If there are three rounds in the box it will jam the tip into the feed ramp. It will feed two handloads under less pressure from the spring just fine.
Factory ammo is about 0.20" shorter than the spec OAL, and feeds just fine with three rounds in the box. This Remington cartridge designed for a short action that does not feed well at the spec OAL has me scratching my head at times. Sure it fits just fine in the box, but won't feed up the ramp because of too much follower spring pressure unless its given another 0.20" of room to slide forward. Need to re-cook my handloads at some point with a OAL that matches the factory ammo.

The only time I have witnessed CRF rifles to jam up are when the bolt is short stroked like the example above. I have experienced the left round popping up and not getting picked up by the bolt in my M77 .338.

 

[AK Troutbum]

I never really thought much about when the CRF actually comes into play either and this post got me curious, so I pulled out three different CRF rifles and took some pictures to show the results. All of these pictures show the exact location of the bolt when the second round, the one to the left, actually pops up into place and is controlled.

Kimber Montana .300 WSM

Winchester model 70 .375 H&H mag

Winchester model 70 pre-64 (1954) .243

Not much difference between any of them but the Kimber seems to pop up the soonest in the cycling.

 

[GKPrice]

I never really thought much about when the CRF actually comes into play either and this post got me curious, so I pulled out three different CRF rifles and took some pictures to show the results. All of these pictures show the exact location of the bolt when the second round, the one to the left, actually pops up into place and is controlled.

Kimber Montana .300 WSM

Winchester model 70 .375 H&H mag

Winchester model 70 pre-64 (1954) .243

Not much difference between any of them but the Kimber seems to pop up the soonest in the cycling.

it kind of looks like the Kimber controls the round "more" too ?

 

[Yellowknife]

I never really thought much about when the CRF actually comes into play either and this post got me curious, so I pulled out three different CRF rifles and took some pictures to show the results. All of these pictures show the exact location of the bolt when the second round, the one to the left, actually pops up into place and is controlled.

Not much difference between any of them but the Kimber seems to pop up the soonest in the cycling.

Troutbum,

I friend of mine checked his pre-war 30-06, and it also tended to shove the case along until it was halfway in the chamber before popping up under the claw. Your fatter mag rounds seem to be controlled sooner in the cycle. I wonder if it is because they are newer/different guns or just because the larger case head gets under the claw quicker?

Either way, it doesn't really matter. Both push feeds and old winchesters have been reliably stuffing rounds in chamber forever. I just surprised me that all the magazine articles I have ever read about CRF guns were slightly less than truthful.

 

[AK Troutbum]

it kind of looks like the Kimber controls the round "more" too ?

I don't know if the Kimber controls it any "more", unless you're referring to it controlling the round for a longer period of time in the cycling, then yes, it does for sure.

 

[AK Troutbum]

I wonder if it is because they are newer/different guns or just because the larger case head gets under the claw quicker?

Either way, it doesn't really matter. Both push feeds and old winchesters have been reliably stuffing rounds in chamber forever. I just surprised me that all the magazine articles I have ever read about CRF guns were slightly less than truthful.

Yeah Yellowknife, I don't know either. I agree both types of feeds work well and have for many, many years. I have several rifles that are push feeds (Remington, Tikka, etc.) and they are very nice rifles but I just seem to always reach for one of my CRF rifles when I'm headed out on a hunt. I definitely prefer and cherish my CRF's more. Maybe it's just some sort of a control issue I have.

 

[Stefan]

Very interesting thread! Thank you for the information and the food for thought.
Has anyone played with Sako's and their CF?