My Tikka groups suck

[Bowfinn]

I'll do what I can to get more "space", and I am hesitant to tighten more and potentially break something. I just got some 140 ELDM factory to try with it. I hear you on the pins, and will see if I can get it (hesitation is the convo with UM that they were unnecessary on the lower recoil rifles with proper torque).

Replacement trigger guards are $12 on eBay if you have an action screw pull through. I tighten mine down to 60in lbs with a thread locking compound, and will continue to do so even if I had one pull through tonight.

Edit: disregard you got it tightened up properly

Pardon Our Interruption...

 

[Dave Thomas]

Why are you switching between right and left hand while doing load development?

 

[philcox]

Why are you switching between right and left hand while doing load development?

Mostly because I seem to shoot just about the same. Also thought I’d get “less tired” swapping, but as was pointed out, I was injecting variability into the equation, so now will shoot one or the other during and entire session.


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[Rich M]

Those groups look fine.

If you are worried about your form. Sign up for a RS shooting class.

 

[Harvey_NW]

You may have gotten a bad rifle, YES Tikka makes a turd now and again

 

[JGRaider]

Blaming the rifle/equipment is the easy button. Change your powder and bullets first.

 

[philcox]

As a bit of a reminder of how this thread got started: I posted a bunch of groups on the “show me your Tikka 10 round groups” thread, and mentioned that my groups were nowhere near what people were showing on that thread. That’s when [mention]ResearchinStuff [/mention] suggested, I start another thread, and folks could try to help me dial in what was going on. So I started this thread, and it has been very helpful.

There were two specific items that I did wrong that this group pointed out, which had nothing to do with the actual load ( be a good or bad) I was evaluating:

1. My action was improperly set in my OEM stock. It was actually resting on top of the recoil lug, and not the recoil lug in the slot.

2. I was trying to do too much at one time, thinking that I was being efficient, where in reality I was becoming sloppy.

By adjusting, both of those, I had a marked improvement in the groups utilizing essentially the same rifle and load. Now I’m going to try to tweak the load a little bit to see if I can get the groups a little bit smaller.


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[ResearchinStuff]

rokslide in action. it definitely helped that you had rifles, rings, and scopes that are well known commodities. so often the guys who ask for help have some type of obvious weak link component, get emotional about the suggestions to upgrade, and resort to throwing rocks/names at everyone who is trying to help.

for your load tweaking - try a temperature stable, single base extruded powder. H4350 is the starting point for the creed. maybe benchmark or varget for the 223 unless you can luck into some 8208 xbr.

 

[philcox]

rokslide in action. it definitely helped that you had rifles, rings, and scopes that are well known commodities. so often the guys who ask for help have some type of obvious weak link component, get emotional about the suggestions to upgrade, and resort to throwing rocks/names at everyone who is trying to help.

for your load tweaking - try a temperature stable, single base extruded powder. H4350 is the starting point for the creed. maybe benchmark or varget for the 223 unless you can luck into some 8208 xbr.

LOL, now you get my “argumentative” side (really not argumentative, more just challenging my understanding and biases):

1. What’s the issue with Hunter? I have about 7.5 lbs of the stuff

2. Similar question as to why not Varget (was great in my 124Hammer)

3. I was under the impression that H4350 would be better in a bit longer barrel, and that Varget would be better because faster?

4. I am wondering if going from CCI 200 to GM 210 M would make any difference?

5. I may see how the 130 TMK performs out of the rifle as well. I looked at my stash, and I have 390 of those, where I only have 155 140 ELDM. If I was going to try the 130, Would Barr or Hunter be more preferable for those in your opinion?

The only problem with the TMK, is that I’m not sure how it shoots out of my rifles, since I’m not aware of a factory reload that I could test with, which I was similarly able to do with the 140 ELDM.

I need to get some rounds down that new 6.5 barrel anyway, so figured I could load up a number of rounds of 10 on that 130 TMK and see if they came close. Current thought is to do three 10 round loads with 45 grains of ramshot hunter, and 39 grains of Varget, 10 in Petersen with CCI 200, 10 in Petersen with 210 M, and 10 in the Lapua with CCI 400.


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[Claybuster]

LOL, now you get my “argumentative” side (really not argumentative, more just challenging my understanding and biases):

1. What’s the issue with Hunter? I have about 7.5 lbs of the stuff

2. Similar question as to why not Varget (was great in my 124Hammer)

3. I was under the impression that H4350 would be better in a bit longer barrel, and that Varget would be better because faster?

4. I am wondering if going from CCI 200 to GM 210 M would make any difference?

5. I may see how the 130 TMK performs out of the rifle as well. I looked at my stash, and I have 390 of those, where I only have 155 140 ELDM. If I was going to try the 130, Would Barr or Hunter be more preferable for those in your opinion?

The only problem with the TMK, is that I’m not sure how it shoots out of my rifles, since I’m not aware of a factory reload that I could test with, which I was similarly able to do with the 140 ELDM.

I need to get some rounds down that new 6.5 barrel anyway, so figured I could load up a number of rounds of 10 on that 130 TMK and see if they came close. Current thought is to do three 10 round loads with 45 grains of ramshot hunter, and 39 grains of Varget, 10 in Petersen with CCI 200, 10 in Petersen with 210 M, and 10 in the Lapua with CCI 400.


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I'm not sure how much you know about load development but cranking out 30 rounds of an unknown load is not the way to do it and probably a waste of time.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

1. I don't know anyone using hunter. It might be great, might not, might get you back in the doom loop with too many uncontrolled variables to know what to fix. In general, double based powders are not as accurate as single base.
2. Varget is probably fine, especially if you go to the 130 tmk, but case fill is going to be lower. Normally that's not a good thing for accuracy, but sometimes it doesn't matter.
3. Won't know until you try
4. If i were you, I'd load up as many identical shells as possible with a load that has shown a reasonable and acceptable level of accuracy. Since you know the 140 eld is working good, I would start there, and use those shells to really focus on your own shooting skills. That's the only way to really work on yourself. If you're changing loads and distantly tinkering, all your error gets blamed on a bad load. After you've reduced your error, i.e 10 shot group sizes are pretty consistent, you've gotten to the point where you can really evaluate a new load and say if it's good/ bad/ acceptable

 

[Skydog]

Something Tikkas can be finicky with, when you're assembling are you actually seating the recoil slot against the lug? I always drop the action in and make sure the lug is in the slot, push the action back so the surfaces are touching, snug up the action screws finger tight, then drop it on the butt a couple times on the floor before torquing.

Also agree with others that removing the contact points, opening up the barrel channel, and more torque on the action screws (I do 55in/lb) won't hurt.

Apologies in advance if this is a dumb question...and it's coming from someone who has never owned a Tikka, but who is seriously considering purchasing one. In regard to the "dropping it on the butt a couple times on the floor" to seat the recoil lug...is this a normal/common issue and procedure? Does this have to be done every time one removes the stock on a Tikka?

 

[JGRaider]

Apologies in advance if this is a dumb question...and it's coming from someone who has never owned a Tikka, but who is seriously considering purchasing one. In regard to the "dropping it on the butt a couple times on the floor" to seat the recoil lug...is this a normal/common issue and procedure? Does this have to be done every time one removes the stock on a Tikka?

No it doesn't, at least not on the 6 I've owned dating back to 1998. You can slide the action on the lug easily, then set the tang end down in the stock. I've never had a minute's trouble doing this.

 

[Harvey_NW]

is this a normal/common issue and procedure? Does this have to be done every time one removes the stock on a Tikka?

Maybe not a common issue, but it's part of my assembly procedure now because I experienced issues that went away after doing it, and properly torquing. There's a little bit of wiggle room for the recoil lug to easily fit in the slot. There's also not a ton of surface area in the bed on a factory stock. Couple that with light torque on the action screws, and things can move. The issues I experienced were on a 7mm Rem Mag with no brake, so it was more susceptible due to recoil.

No different than pushing ring bases forward for the through bolt to seat in the slot on rails, or dovetail bases against recoil pins, or rails against screws, or bedding recoil lugs, etc.

 

[Skydog]

No it doesn't, at least not on the 6 I've owned dating back to 1998. You can slide the action on the lug easily, then set the tang end down in the stock. I've never had a minute's trouble doing this.

Maybe not a common issue, but it's part of my assembly procedure now because I experienced issues that went away after doing it, and properly torquing. There's a little bit of wiggle room for the recoil lug to easily fit in the slot. There's also not a ton of surface area in the bed on a factory stock. Couple that with light torque on the action screws, and things can move. The issues I experienced were on a 7mm Rem Mag with no brake, so it was more susceptible due to recoil.

No different than pushing ring bases forward for the through bolt to seat in the slot on rails, or dovetail bases against recoil pins, or rails against screws, or bedding recoil lugs, etc.

I appreciate the answers/explanations. So, it sounds like it's not that big of a deal/issue...certainly not enough to deter someone from purchasing a Tikka.

 

[Harvey_NW]

I appreciate the answers/explanations. So, it sounds like it's not that big of a deal/issue...certainly not enough to deter someone from purchasing a Tikka.

Definitely not. I've phased almost all my other modern rifle models out and replaced with Tikkas, they're one of the highest quality factory options on the market. But they have some standardized issues that all factory rifles do (assembly/preservative lube, low torque assembly, tight barrel channel).

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the best way to eliminate potential issues from the start (with any rifle) is to disassemble, degrease all screws and surfaces, ensure proper clearance of the entire barrel channel for free float (enough you can drag a dead cat between the barrel and channel - Rokslide joke ), with the face of the recoil slot seated firmly against the lug (my addition), and tight action screw torque (55-60in/lb on Tikka) with blue loctite or paint pen.

 

[philcox]

1. I don't know anyone using hunter. It might be great, might not, might get you back in the doom loop with too many uncontrolled variables to know what to fix. In general, double based powders are not as accurate as single base.
2. Varget is probably fine, especially if you go to the 130 tmk, but case fill is going to be lower. Normally that's not a good thing for accuracy, but sometimes it doesn't matter.
3. Won't know until you try
4. If i were you, I'd load up as many identical shells as possible with a load that has shown a reasonable and acceptable level of accuracy. Since you know the 140 eld is working good, I would start there, and use those shells to really focus on your own shooting skills. That's the only way to really work on yourself. If you're changing loads and distantly tinkering, all your error gets blamed on a bad load. After you've reduced your error, i.e 10 shot group sizes are pretty consistent, you've gotten to the point where you can really evaluate a new load and say if it's good/ bad/ acceptable

Good stuff. Thx. I'll load up a few 140 with H4350 (I have about 3/4 lb of it) and see how it shoots compared to the Hunter I have today.

 

[Schmo]

@philcox,
You might need to pull that front scope ring back just a little. The dovetail on the receiver tapers at the end, and looks like you might be clamped onto that taper, causing subpar tension.

 

[Castle Rock]

@philcox,
You might need to pull that front scope ring back just a little. The dovetail on the receiver tapers at the end, and looks like you might be clamped onto that taper, causing subpar tension.

View attachment 823988

I beg to differ, that little bit of deformation at the front is a great recoil lug

 

[philcox]

Ok, went to the range today. Shot the following loads:

• 140 ELDM @ 42.0 RL16, 43.0 H4350, and 46.0 Hunter
• 130 TMK @ 43.0 RL16, 44.0 H4350, and 45.5 Hunter

My new LH 6.5 CM in my XLR Stock. Shot 5 of each, then the other 5 of each. All shot Lefty.

Summary: My 130 TMK over 45.5g Hunter is as good a load as I can shoot. The 140 over H4350 MIGHT be better, as I had a better group because I know I jerked on one (knew it when the shot went off, and verified on video). With that said, while that group was smaller, I like the MR and grouping on the 130 TMK over Hunter. So now I can just load up a bunch and practice. I'll use that in my NRL Hunter even too (since Skills has no Power Factor requirement).

My results:



Actual H4350 Velocity avg was 2920, and RL18 was 2832. I transposed them on the markup.