My thoughts on Long-range shooting/hunting

[WJM1000]

I’ve been long-range hunting (over 40 years) and have been a 1000-yard completive shooter for a number of years and winning a IBS/NBRSA national championship for 1000 yard score and two state championships for smallest group.



First off to be successful you must have excellent equipment to do the job, that’s fairly easy to do if you have the money to buy what is required. In my opinion the weakest link in the chain is the scope, buy the best you can afford, the rifle can sometimes be purchased of the shelf, manufactured by several commercial rifle makers. That being said in my opinion if you’re going to spend your hard-earned dollars, go to a qualified gun builder and have a custom barrel chambered in your favorite caliber. That will take care of part of the equation.

Now for the hard part is acquiring the skill set. I really don’t know how to tell you how to go about it, other than I practice when the conditions are bad at the longest range I can 300 to 500 yards or so would be good. Shorter ranges can work but not be as dramatic of changes as the longer ranges. I should mention quality ammunition is of major importance. (Good scope + good rifle + bad ammo = bad groups.) When shooting in windy conditions I pay close attention to the wind in front of the rifle, when the bullet exits the barrel gravity and wind acts on it immediately and stars to pull it down and in the direction of the wind and I think it effects it the most at that moment a few thousands of deflections at the muzzle can be huge at distance. I also look at the conditions along the bullets path that can counteract or add to what’s happening at the muzzle and I’ll adjust accordingly. I don’t pay too much attention to what’s happening at the target except for light conditions, because the bullet is already there.

In all honesty while having many one shot kills at distance, I’ve also had my share of near misses on the first shot, but if having an opportunity for a second shot I more often than not make a clean kill. In the many years of hunting long-range, I never crippled one and have it get away. On rare occasions I did have to shoot an animal again not wanting to let it bleed-out and suffer.

I’ll probably have a lot of blow-back on this and maybe called BS but this is what works for me.

 

[WeiserBucks]

In for the discussion.

 

[voltage]

There is nothing to blowback on here.

 

[JF_Idaho]

Can you explain your theory that wind has the most effect at the muzzle?

Are you implying that the wind has more effect on the bullet traveling 2700fps vs let's say 1700fps?

Or are you saying that's where you record/judge the wind speed with the best outcome in general?

 

[Geewhiz]

Can you explain your theory that wind has the most effect at the muzzle?

Are you implying that the wind has more effect on the bullet traveling 2700fps vs let's say 1700fps?

Or are you saying that's where you record/judge the wind speed with the best outcome in general?

I understood what he said is if the wind blows the bullet 1 millimeter at the muzzle it has a greater effect downrange than if the wind blows the bullet 1 millimeter just before it impacts the target, because angles.

 

[Megalodon]

Riveting!

 

[JF_Idaho]

I understood what he said is if the wind blows the bullet 1 millimeter at the muzzle it has a greater effect downrange than if the wind blows the bullet 1 millimeter just before it impacts the target, because angles.

Ok. Now that I reread more carefully, I see it as such.

But, by quick calculation at 2700fps 143gr eldx spends .11 seconds to 100 yards, and 1.36 seconds from 100-1000 yards.

It's an interesting theory. Not sure how it correlates to reality.

 

[JCnc3]

I’ve been long-range hunting (over 40 years) and have been a 1000-yard completive shooter for a number of years and winning a IBS/NBRSA national championship for 1000 yard score and two state championships for smallest group.



First off to be successful you must have excellent equipment to do the job, that’s fairly easy to do if you have the money to buy what is required. In my opinion the weakest link in the chain is the scope, buy the best you can afford, the rifle can sometimes be purchased of the shelf, manufactured by several commercial rifle makers. That being said in my opinion if you’re going to spend your hard-earned dollars, go to a qualified gun builder and have a custom barrel chambered in your favorite caliber. That will take care of part of the equation.

Now for the hard part is acquiring the skill set. I really don’t know how to tell you how to go about it, other than I practice when the conditions are bad at the longest range I can 300 to 500 yards or so would be good. Shorter ranges can work but not be as dramatic of changes as the longer ranges. I should mention quality ammunition is of major importance. (Good scope + good rifle + bad ammo = bad groups.) When shooting in windy conditions I pay close attention to the wind in front of the rifle, when the bullet exits the barrel gravity and wind acts on it immediately and stars to pull it down and in the direction of the wind and I think it effects it the most at that moment a few thousands of deflections at the muzzle can be huge at distance. I also look at the conditions along the bullets path that can counteract or add to what’s happening at the muzzle and I’ll adjust accordingly. I don’t pay too much attention to what’s happening at the target except for light conditions, because the bullet is already there.

In all honesty while having many one shot kills at distance, I’ve also had my share of near misses on the first shot, but if having an opportunity for a second shot I more often than not make a clean kill. In the many years of hunting long-range, I never crippled one and have it get away. On rare occasions I did have to shoot an animal again not wanting to let it bleed-out and suffer.

I’ll probably have a lot of blow-back on this and maybe called BS but this is what works for me.

I’m just getting started into long range. I’ve hunted for a long time and shot all kinds of firearms, but just recently got the chance to shoot long range. I’m curious to know your mindset on starting out using existing equipment.

I have a Bergara B14 .308 that is capable of more accuracy than I can give it as the shooter. I’m trying to keep this as my only rifle (for the time being) for hunting and long range, BUT I need a new scope. My intention is to spend as much as possible, but that will likely only be about $1,200-ish. The mindset I have is this: My rifle performs well, I was hitting consistently at 900yds but ran out of elevation adjustments on the optic. I can buy a new scope in that price range that will allow for better adjustments and then I intend on taking some long range courses at my local range and just practicing. Eventually I could upgrade the rifle, then the scope after that, etc.

I think of it as playing “leapfrog”, just upgrading one thing after the other to spread out cost while I learn and improve. Since you have a lot of experience in BOTH hunting and match, I’d love to hear your thoughts!


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[WJM1000]

Ok. Now that I reread more carefully, I see it as such.

But, by quick calculation at 2700fps 143gr eldx spends .11 seconds to 100 yards, and 1.36 seconds from 100-1000 yards.

It's an interesting theory. Not sure how it correlates to reality.

Once the bullet gets acted upon leaving the muzzle it will continue moving in the direction it was acted upon. If the wind is blowing from right to left as soon as the wind interacts with the bullet it will start the bullet moving to the left and and continue moving left along the bullets flight path until something else acts upon it. As a simple example if upon leaving the barrel the wind moves the bullet left 0.010” and stops a yard or so from the muzzle and no other force influences it along its flight path at 1000 yards it Will be several inches because it’s exponential. I’m to lazy to do the math calculations but if forced to I can. This probably won’t satisfy your question but for now it’s the best I can do. Good shooting.

 

[JF_Idaho]

@WJM1000

Fair enough. I do get what you're saying. And in some ways it makes sense. I would argue a right to left wind will be counteracted by spin drift, and a left to right will be enhanced by spin drift in your scenario.

I guess the reason I was interested in your theory was that in most disciplines that I have spectated such as benchrest, no one is setting up windflags at the bench.

I would be interested in the amount of wind that it would take to move a bullet .01" out of the muzzle, resulting in 1/10 of an inch at 1k (again, in your scenario) I don't even allude to knowing HOW to do that math.

 

[roadrunner]

Ok. Now that I reread more carefully, I see it as such.

But, by quick calculation at 2700fps 143gr eldx spends .11 seconds to 100 yards, and 1.36 seconds from 100-1000 yards.

It's an interesting theory. Not sure how it correlates to reality.

The best representation of what would happen is using a slope field analysis.

In layman's terms, time of flight is what would determine drift the most.

The direction of wind will factor in as well. Left to right will play differently than right to left, and not just drift...

 

[JF_Idaho]

The best representation of what would happen is using a slope field analysis.

In layman's terms, time of flight is what would determine drift the most.

The direction of wind will factor in as well. Left to right will play differently than right to left, and not just drift...

I feel like that's what I'm trying to get at. You all are smarter than me. But I am pretty dang sure that if you have a 15mph L to R wind to 100 yards and a 15 mph wind R to L from 100 to 1000 yards that the bullet is going to impact L with the time of flight differential.

Either that or I'm retarded.

 

[WCB]

@WJM1000

Fair enough. I do get what you're saying. And in some ways it makes sense. I would argue a right to left wind will be counteracted by spin drift, and a left to right will be enhanced by spin drift in your scenario.

I guess the reason I was interested in your theory was that in most disciplines that I have spectated such as benchrest, no one is setting up windflags at the bench.

I would be interested in the amount of wind that it would take to move a bullet .01" out of the muzzle, resulting in 1/10 of an inch at 1k (again, in your scenario) I don't even allude to knowing HOW to do that math.

Well when you are benchrest shooting or any other shooting you are sitting 3 feet from the muzzle. so you can estimate range without a flag...knowing what the wind is doing incrementally down range (direction, speed, consistency) needs a visual either flags, brush, using mirage etc.

That is also why the OP says he watches conditions in between for environmental that may enhance or counteract his original correction at the muzzle or muzzle to X distances before a change. Nobody is saying forget down range.

An example would be deflection off of brush. A deer is standing 1ft behind some wood vegetation (lets say size of a pencil) @1000yds you hit it and it deflects it isn't moving far off line before hitting the animal. You hit the same branch at 1 yard from the end of the muzzle and it carries that deflection "correction" 999 yards towards the animal it will be off target. Obviously not every scenario can be written out but the concept is the same.

 

[JF_Idaho]

I get the angular concept of whatever happens closest to point zero has the most (potential) effect. I just don't agree that it has the most effect.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Wind at the muzzle will have more effect on target than a similar wind at 400 yards if the target is 800 yards.

 

[WeiserBucks]

I get the angular concept of whatever happens closest to point zero has the most (potential) effect. I just don't agree that it has the most effect.

If no other influences are in play, whatever happens at the muzzle will have a greater effect vs down range, assuming the wind is equal at whatever given range.

 

[roadrunner]

@WJM1000

I would be interested in the amount of wind that it would take to move a bullet .01" out of the muzzle, resulting in 1/10 of an inch at 1k (again, in your scenario) I don't even allude to knowing HOW to do that math.

There are a multitude of other variables that would cause the bullet to drift 0.10" (approximately 1/16 of an inch) at 1,000 yds.

 

[JF_Idaho]

If no other influences are in play, whatever happens at the muzzle will have a greater effect vs down range, assuming the wind is equal at whatever given range.

Understandable. But the compounded wind over 799 yds will have more effect than over the first yard

 

[WeiserBucks]

Understandable. But the compounded wind over 799 yds will have more effect than over the first yard

You're certainly correct. My point was a 10 mph wind from muzzle to 50 yards and zero wind the other 750 yards to target will have more of an effect than zero wind from muzzle to 750 and 10 mph from 750 to 800. Hope that makes more sense.

 

[JF_Idaho]

You're certainly correct. My point was a 10 mph wind from muzzle to 50 yards and zero wind the other 750 yards to target will have more of an effect than zero wind from muzzle to 750 and 10 mph from 750 to 800. Hope that makes more sense.

For sure. I'm really not trying to be argumentative. As I said above, I understand the angular potential, I just don't agree that it ends up being the most influential fraction of the time of flight in any practical manner.