phil
FNG
JNDEER, If you get a chance to compare the alpha compact 10X25's I would like to see your results. phil
My quest for "the one"
- Thread starter JNDEER
- Start date
Racethesunset
WKR
Right on, of course
JNDEER, now that you have clarification on terms, which of the binoculars are you leaning towards?
Racethesunset
WKR
Phil, I purchased and compared the newer generation Swarovski 8x20's and 10x25's , as well as the widely acclaimed Bushnell Elite Custom Compact 7x26's earlier this year.
For fit, the Swarovski's were tiny, so small in hand and around the neck that you forget their presence. Maybe 7 or 8 oz if I recall. They are small enough to fit in the chest pocket of Kuiu's Guide jacket, very portable. Their physical construction was first rate as well. Strong hinges, quick focus mechanism. The Bushnell's were a little bit bigger, an inverted porro prism design so a bit bulkier, but still very high quality as you'd expect from the 'Elite' series.
For image, the views all seemed rather constrained, although the glass was all top notch. The Swarovski center sharpness and brightness during the day were excellent, on par with what you'd expect from an alpha. Not Swarovision, more like SLC NEU, blurred at the edges, still brighter than you'd expect. The Bushnell's were very bright as well, and had a bit less resolution if I recall.
These 'compact' binoculars are great for taking to the ballpark during the middle of the day, but for extended glassing sessions, no dice. The Elite's were a little bit easier to use, however, I had eye strain after an hour of using them, same as the Swarovski's. The rotating eye cups on the Elite's allowed for easier eye placement than the Swarovski, so I kept them a little bit longer, but ultimately ended up selling all of my compacts and picking up lightweight Swaro and Nikon 8x30 porros to play with. Much better fit, though still not EL SV fit. I would not recommend the compacts for extended use, hunting, or anything outside of the ballpark or opera house. Even traveling, I would not use them, but would bring a pair of lighter 8x32's, e.g. Sightron Blue Sky II's if you are on a budget, EL SV, EDG, etc. 8x32's if you are not.
phil
FNG
Race, thanks for getting back to me. Good info! phil
Schism
WKR
I am subscribing to this thread as I am shopping for a new pair of binos myself. Thanks JNDEER for posting your findings for all of us!
- Thread Starter
- #26
The Victory HT had finally arrived. I went out immediately to try them out and compare them to the others. I had read on a birding forum comments from someone at Zeiss that these were “made with the hunter in mind” and so this had me excited to put them in use. It was windy while glassing so seeing how well the binos held in the hand and how well the image stabilized would be an easy test. At first I pulled out the Victory’s and started to glass (this was after setting the diopter at home). I started to pan around the hill and immediately as the wind was blowing hard down the hill hitting me square in the face I could tell the image was very bouncy. I figured it was just the wind and quickly changed to the EL’s to check if it was the wind. Nope, the EL’s held just fine. I went back to the Victory’s and when I held them back in my hand I could feel that they are very weight forward heavy. The barrels are very large and require my whole hand and palm to hold them. Because they are so heavy near the eyes and so light at the ends it makes for a bino that is very hard to hold steady if you glass while standing. I then tried leaning on the vehicle with my elbows resting on the hood. This helped a lot and I could then compare the clarity of them to the EL’s. So far it appears that they are very clear and crisp just like the EL’s and even though I said I would not discount a bino because of the ergonomics of it, I have to say that I have changed my mind. Everytime I went back to the HT’s they just felt bulky, awkward, and very unbalanced in my hands. It would take some exceptional glass, something far better than what I see in the Swaro’s, for me to have to live with these characteristic flaws. These flaws may not be seen by others, but it was immediately felt by my when compared any of the other binoculars to the HT’s and it was not something I liked. Because of this I did not spend a lot of time looking for details of how well the glass actually is, but from what I saw glassing up until about 15 minutes of last light they were right up with the EL’s and would probably take some detailed time to see any major differences between the two.
I have noticed that the EL, HT and Euro’s all have a very similar appearance through the glass compared to the Razors and SLC. It is tough to describe the differences between them, but for the EL, HT and Euros they have a darker shade or tent throughout the whole site picture. This is not to say they don’t gather enough light, but just that the image is toned down some compared to the Razor and SLC. The Razors are almost over bright and can produce a glare, not on the glass itself, but the objects you look at. The SLC are very bright as well, but I have never seen the type of glare that I sometimes get while using the Razors.
The night I used the HT’s for the first time I also looked more closely at the razors and euro’s. Even with the wind the razors seemed to hold better than they did the previous outings. This also could be because of the diopter adjustment I did, again. As soon as the sun set I glassed the top of the eastern facing hill and the Razors produced halo’s at the bottom of the glass and it prevented me from seeing. I believe this was because I wear glasses. When I pulled them down and glassed at the bottom of the mountain it was fine. The euro’s did not produce this glare I was getting while looking at the top of the mountain. At last light I was glassing under an oak about a mile away on a west facing slope. Under the oak there are two grey colored branches back and under the canopy of the tree. The razors showed these branches clearer, but the image was tough to stabilize even having my elbows resting on the hood of the vehicle. The Euro’s were not quite as crisp, but I could clearly see the two branches and even though the edges were not as well defined as what I was seeing with the razors, the image was not bouncy and it allowed me to see the branches and under the tree a little better.
I have noticed that the EL, HT and Euro’s all have a very similar appearance through the glass compared to the Razors and SLC. It is tough to describe the differences between them, but for the EL, HT and Euros they have a darker shade or tent throughout the whole site picture. This is not to say they don’t gather enough light, but just that the image is toned down some compared to the Razor and SLC. The Razors are almost over bright and can produce a glare, not on the glass itself, but the objects you look at. The SLC are very bright as well, but I have never seen the type of glare that I sometimes get while using the Razors.
The night I used the HT’s for the first time I also looked more closely at the razors and euro’s. Even with the wind the razors seemed to hold better than they did the previous outings. This also could be because of the diopter adjustment I did, again. As soon as the sun set I glassed the top of the eastern facing hill and the Razors produced halo’s at the bottom of the glass and it prevented me from seeing. I believe this was because I wear glasses. When I pulled them down and glassed at the bottom of the mountain it was fine. The euro’s did not produce this glare I was getting while looking at the top of the mountain. At last light I was glassing under an oak about a mile away on a west facing slope. Under the oak there are two grey colored branches back and under the canopy of the tree. The razors showed these branches clearer, but the image was tough to stabilize even having my elbows resting on the hood of the vehicle. The Euro’s were not quite as crisp, but I could clearly see the two branches and even though the edges were not as well defined as what I was seeing with the razors, the image was not bouncy and it allowed me to see the branches and under the tree a little better.
- Thread Starter
- #27
Right on, of course
JNDEER, now that you have clarification on terms, which of the binoculars are you leaning towards?
I don't want to say which ones as of yet. I still have some more tinkering to do with them. glassing some from a tripod and I plan on takeing them out the end of the month to the actual woods to do some good comparisons.
phil,
I won't be making a review on the compacts. for my style of hunting a smaller bino won't cut it and there for it is not something I am considering buying.
sorry,
Josh
- Thread Starter
- #28
I had a few hours tonight to go back out and look through the binos at the same location I had been going to. Tonight there was no breeze to start and clear blue bird skies. I first put the binos that I am leaning towards on the crooked horn to get a real life feeling of them on while glassing. With no breeze I found the Zeiss more user friendly. In fact for a while I almost was doubting my choice of the pair I had strapped on. While glassing through the Zeiss I reminds me of looking through a super clear sliding glass door. Like you don’t know the glass is there, it is a smooth appearance for the eyes and very easy for glassing. This revelations were determined glassing a bachelor group of some of CA finest “forked horn nation” specimens. 2 spikes, 2 forky’s and one with balls on the end. All were about 250 yards from me in the yellow grass on the east facing slope.
Because my muscles were very fatigued from working today after a while it became more difficult to stabilize the binos. Some kids had come by and spooked the deer I was looking at and one of the bigger forky’s decided he needed to run and run and run. He finally starting to walk along the hill and was about 1200 yards away or so. I quickly went back and forth holding the HT and SLC. The HT I could tell he had antlers and could see that the tops looked “bigger” but that was about it. It was clear and crisp, I just could not stabilize the image and it bounced around. When I went to the SLC’s I could make out the tops had small forks while just leaning against my jeep. When I put the SLC on my door to get them steady it was very apparent he was a forky. When I tried to put the HT on the jeep door they really started to bounce around. Trying to stabilize the image of the antlers was too difficult and I could not make out the forks. These were small forks as he is still growing, probably something like 2” or so. If the Zeiss were on a tripod a lot more and less just in the hands glassing, the ease looking through them on the eyes I think would be very nice. Edge to edge clarity and crispness between the EL, SLC and HT is almost too difficult to distinguish. The EL/HT show more yellow then the others and I will talk about that some more in a bit. This is really only noticeable if you go back and forth quickly between the binos. If not, your eyes would have to be sensitive to it. The SLC’s continue to impress me with their ability to be not only bright but show the images very clear and crsip. The HT and EL have the larger FOV and show images to be bigger the the SLC’s. Tonight I was using the SLC and glassing the bedded buck at 200 some yards and at 838 (legal last light where I was at, Sunset was at 810) looking on the east facing slope from the valley floor up I could still see the small forks on his head while glassing free hand.
Some side information. One night last week when I was heading out to go try the Zeiss again I found that my crankshaft pulley was broken on my jeep and needed to be replaced. At first I did not know it was it and the knocking noise had me thinking I could have thrown a rod. When this happened some of my thoughts were “well there goes my high end bino’s, I got to settle for something less.” The Jeep is now fixed and running smooth, but I figured I would talk about the cheaper binos some more as if I would have had to potentially buy them. Yes, this means that based on what I have seen they are not optically as good as the more expensive binos when looking through them with my eyes.
Euro vs. Razor. Like I said before the Razors are very very bright. Again tonight glassing up the hill I got that bad glare. I tried moving it around my eyes some, but no dice. I then took off my glasses and pulled out the cups. No glare! So, if you wear glasses be warned that glassing towards the sun or a east facing ridge after sunset may cause glassing issues. After some time the razors, despite being so light, can be adaptable to the hands for glassing. The last 15-20 minutes of light the FOV is still very bright, but I found it harder to stabilize the image. If you could (ie on a tripod) then they would probably be ok for all intents and purposes. They have the brightness of the SLC (not necessarily the detailed clarity, just specifically how bright the images appear) but also show some aspects of the EL/HT. I was glassing a south facing hill with three drainages running east to west. The EL/HT/Razors did not show the depth and curves of the top of the nulls going up and over each little drainage. This hill was nothing but yellow grass. The yellow really stood out on all three binos. Not in a bad way, just very noticeable going back and forth compared to the others. The Euros and SLC showed the rolling nulls and you could see the depth of field as the distance changed from the first null to the top of the hill. They also did not show the yellow as much and I could see that there were grey and tan colored areas on the hill. The Euros are not as bright (again this is just saying the FOV doesn’t appear as bright, but images are very similar) as the razors, but from what I could tell they hold a crisp and clear image a little further to the edges then the Razors. I mostly glass by looking in the general middle of the FOV, so clarity to the edges is not a huge issue, but from what I have seen these past nights is that it makes glassing easier on the eyes if you maximize the clarity and crispness in the whole FOV. This does not mean that cheap binos won’t work for glassing because I have killed animals using cheaper binos and have glassed for hours with no issues. Trying to explain what I mean by “easier” is hard and it may have to be something you need to experience for yourself. The Euros fell way better in my hands and no matter if I am hand holding them or leaning on the hood of the jeep the image stabilizes very nicely. When glassing to the top of the hill as the sun is setting I get no glare with my glasses. They were about the same in clarity for the last 15 or so minutes of light. For both binos when I say they were the same I was looking at the buck with the balls on the top of his antlers bedded in the yellow grass 209 yards away. Both binos could see the antlers and could see there was a “bump” on the tops of the antler, but if there was a small fork on one side or not I think it would have been difficult to tell based on what I was seeing tonight.
I have not talked a lot about the Primes (my original pair). Despite me going to be putting these up for sale here and other sites I will not sugar coat my findings. These are not high end glass, period. After I purchased them I found out they were better then the Diamondbacks and original Razors as that is what I was comparing them to. It is very noticeable while comparing them to the Swaro’s that they lack qualities and tonight I tried to see what exactly that was. I think what I am noticing is that they lack a little of all the qualities, LOL. They are not as bright as any of the other pairs. The biggest thing I notice is that they do not hold crisp clear images as far as the Razors or Euros, this is the big difference. The middle of the FOV is fine (not as crisp as the Razor or Euros, but close), but from the middle area out it is not crisp or clear compared to the others. It starts loosing detail in the middle of the FOV earlier then the others. Probably right after the sun sets (again glassing toward the east slope from the bottom, so it is actually a little darker). But you can still see the “bucks“. Around 20 or so minutes of last light is when the spike bucks appeared to just have “things” growing out of their heads and not actual spikes. I think this may be something to do with my eyes/glasses and diopter as when my brother was comparing them to the Razor/SLC the other night he was not seeing everything as unclear as I was. Not to say they were as good as the SLC or Razors, just maybe not as unclear as what I am describing.
I will be returning them next week. If anyone has anything they would like me to look at before then, just let me know.
Because my muscles were very fatigued from working today after a while it became more difficult to stabilize the binos. Some kids had come by and spooked the deer I was looking at and one of the bigger forky’s decided he needed to run and run and run. He finally starting to walk along the hill and was about 1200 yards away or so. I quickly went back and forth holding the HT and SLC. The HT I could tell he had antlers and could see that the tops looked “bigger” but that was about it. It was clear and crisp, I just could not stabilize the image and it bounced around. When I went to the SLC’s I could make out the tops had small forks while just leaning against my jeep. When I put the SLC on my door to get them steady it was very apparent he was a forky. When I tried to put the HT on the jeep door they really started to bounce around. Trying to stabilize the image of the antlers was too difficult and I could not make out the forks. These were small forks as he is still growing, probably something like 2” or so. If the Zeiss were on a tripod a lot more and less just in the hands glassing, the ease looking through them on the eyes I think would be very nice. Edge to edge clarity and crispness between the EL, SLC and HT is almost too difficult to distinguish. The EL/HT show more yellow then the others and I will talk about that some more in a bit. This is really only noticeable if you go back and forth quickly between the binos. If not, your eyes would have to be sensitive to it. The SLC’s continue to impress me with their ability to be not only bright but show the images very clear and crsip. The HT and EL have the larger FOV and show images to be bigger the the SLC’s. Tonight I was using the SLC and glassing the bedded buck at 200 some yards and at 838 (legal last light where I was at, Sunset was at 810) looking on the east facing slope from the valley floor up I could still see the small forks on his head while glassing free hand.
Some side information. One night last week when I was heading out to go try the Zeiss again I found that my crankshaft pulley was broken on my jeep and needed to be replaced. At first I did not know it was it and the knocking noise had me thinking I could have thrown a rod. When this happened some of my thoughts were “well there goes my high end bino’s, I got to settle for something less.” The Jeep is now fixed and running smooth, but I figured I would talk about the cheaper binos some more as if I would have had to potentially buy them. Yes, this means that based on what I have seen they are not optically as good as the more expensive binos when looking through them with my eyes.
Euro vs. Razor. Like I said before the Razors are very very bright. Again tonight glassing up the hill I got that bad glare. I tried moving it around my eyes some, but no dice. I then took off my glasses and pulled out the cups. No glare! So, if you wear glasses be warned that glassing towards the sun or a east facing ridge after sunset may cause glassing issues. After some time the razors, despite being so light, can be adaptable to the hands for glassing. The last 15-20 minutes of light the FOV is still very bright, but I found it harder to stabilize the image. If you could (ie on a tripod) then they would probably be ok for all intents and purposes. They have the brightness of the SLC (not necessarily the detailed clarity, just specifically how bright the images appear) but also show some aspects of the EL/HT. I was glassing a south facing hill with three drainages running east to west. The EL/HT/Razors did not show the depth and curves of the top of the nulls going up and over each little drainage. This hill was nothing but yellow grass. The yellow really stood out on all three binos. Not in a bad way, just very noticeable going back and forth compared to the others. The Euros and SLC showed the rolling nulls and you could see the depth of field as the distance changed from the first null to the top of the hill. They also did not show the yellow as much and I could see that there were grey and tan colored areas on the hill. The Euros are not as bright (again this is just saying the FOV doesn’t appear as bright, but images are very similar) as the razors, but from what I could tell they hold a crisp and clear image a little further to the edges then the Razors. I mostly glass by looking in the general middle of the FOV, so clarity to the edges is not a huge issue, but from what I have seen these past nights is that it makes glassing easier on the eyes if you maximize the clarity and crispness in the whole FOV. This does not mean that cheap binos won’t work for glassing because I have killed animals using cheaper binos and have glassed for hours with no issues. Trying to explain what I mean by “easier” is hard and it may have to be something you need to experience for yourself. The Euros fell way better in my hands and no matter if I am hand holding them or leaning on the hood of the jeep the image stabilizes very nicely. When glassing to the top of the hill as the sun is setting I get no glare with my glasses. They were about the same in clarity for the last 15 or so minutes of light. For both binos when I say they were the same I was looking at the buck with the balls on the top of his antlers bedded in the yellow grass 209 yards away. Both binos could see the antlers and could see there was a “bump” on the tops of the antler, but if there was a small fork on one side or not I think it would have been difficult to tell based on what I was seeing tonight.
I have not talked a lot about the Primes (my original pair). Despite me going to be putting these up for sale here and other sites I will not sugar coat my findings. These are not high end glass, period. After I purchased them I found out they were better then the Diamondbacks and original Razors as that is what I was comparing them to. It is very noticeable while comparing them to the Swaro’s that they lack qualities and tonight I tried to see what exactly that was. I think what I am noticing is that they lack a little of all the qualities, LOL. They are not as bright as any of the other pairs. The biggest thing I notice is that they do not hold crisp clear images as far as the Razors or Euros, this is the big difference. The middle of the FOV is fine (not as crisp as the Razor or Euros, but close), but from the middle area out it is not crisp or clear compared to the others. It starts loosing detail in the middle of the FOV earlier then the others. Probably right after the sun sets (again glassing toward the east slope from the bottom, so it is actually a little darker). But you can still see the “bucks“. Around 20 or so minutes of last light is when the spike bucks appeared to just have “things” growing out of their heads and not actual spikes. I think this may be something to do with my eyes/glasses and diopter as when my brother was comparing them to the Razor/SLC the other night he was not seeing everything as unclear as I was. Not to say they were as good as the SLC or Razors, just maybe not as unclear as what I am describing.
I will be returning them next week. If anyone has anything they would like me to look at before then, just let me know.
- Thread Starter
- #29
Here are some final thoughts on this long winded review. It is clear there is a jump in the optical performance between a $300-$600, $900-$1200 and the $2k binocular. For some the differences will not justify the means, but for others it will. We all have differences not only in vision, in our hunting styles and the total days afield hunting and these are what I feel will make the difference in binocular choice. There are huge jumps in not only the optical performance but ergonomics of the binoculars from the $500 to the $1000 binocular. If I were to look at upgrading and could not justify or afford a $2k binocular I would be trying to get my hands on as many of the mid-range (greater than $700) binoculars I could. The jump is so great that I would not be wasting my time with the lower end binoculars. I saw better edge to edge clarity and better brighter sharper images not only during the daylight but during low light as well. Testing in stores, outside of stores and even in your neighborhood will NOT produce the same results as what you will be seeing in the field hunting unless you’re an optic expert, IMO. I changed my top end binocular choice in every viewing location until I finally settled on what is best for my hunting terrain and conditions. The binoculars I choose are the SLC HD’s and I can honestly say that I do not think I will ever need to upgrade them again.
Racethesunset
WKR
Solid reviews JNDEER! It sounds like you have found yourself a sweetheart binocular, and that you enjoyed the evaluation process a lot as well. Thank you for sharing both your preference and your process, and let us know when you find an upgrade
Jndeer,
Thanks for doing this comparison. I am in the market and a Rokslide optics expert told me to look hard at the slc hd. It is hard to get a field test on them in my shoes so I take all the info I can by others experiences and thoughts. I am going into town Thursday to lol at them and hopefully decide on a pair.
Thanks!
Thanks for doing this comparison. I am in the market and a Rokslide optics expert told me to look hard at the slc hd. It is hard to get a field test on them in my shoes so I take all the info I can by others experiences and thoughts. I am going into town Thursday to lol at them and hopefully decide on a pair.
Thanks!
Shrek
WKR
Thanks for the very thorough and plain spoken review. The parts about the near and farther knolls and and the the curves showing in some and appearing flat in others really help to understand the real world differences. That and the part about being able to make out forks versus just blobs.
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2012
- Messages
- 8,961
The SLC HD are hard to beat. Great write up. Thanks
- Thread Starter
- #35
Thanks guys. It was quit the eye opener to see the true differences when looking through them side by side. If I would not of had them to compare multiple times afield and side by side the end result could have been different. Being able to inter-change them quickly while looking at the same object was key.
I will do that. I had heard rumors some time back that there was a prototype coming about that had some kind of internal image stabilizer. Kind of like what is on a camcorder. If you could combine that with the glass of any of the high end stuff you would be looking at something worth changeing to.
Solid reviews JNDEER! It sounds like you have found yourself a sweetheart binocular, and that you enjoyed the evaluation process a lot as well. Thank you for sharing both your preference and your process, and let us know when you find an upgrade
I will do that. I had heard rumors some time back that there was a prototype coming about that had some kind of internal image stabilizer. Kind of like what is on a camcorder. If you could combine that with the glass of any of the high end stuff you would be looking at something worth changeing to.
Thanks for the great thread, JNDEER.
I also find the SLC HD to be a great binocular.
I also find the SLC HD to be a great binocular.
JN deer. I went to town today and found slc and new victory ht on top of my list. I think I'm going to go with slc. The ONLY reason is ht lacks an easy way to attach to tripod. That's a big deal for me.
I will say though, the ht's are really good (in the store)
I will say though, the ht's are really good (in the store)
trophyhunt
FNG
Amazing write up! I have been looking at the razor hd and zeiss for the past month trying to decide what to choose, I didn't even consider the slc's because I always thought of them as the ugly step brother (compared to the el's). I will now have to add the slc's to my list, I only want to spend around a 1,000 but will adjust it a little to get the best pair (without spending 2,500 on the over priced el's). You have answered all my questions in one post, I think the moderators should make your assesment a permanate post in the optics area. I am really glad I looked at your post, I was just gonna start a new subject on what is the best bino for around 1,000.00. Thanks again, very well done!!!! Jerry
trophyhunt
FNG
Well I'm quoting myself, after looking at the prices of the slc's at cabelas (2,100) I have already dropped them off my list. Which sucks, but I cannot spent over 2,000 dollars on bino's, so now I'm back to where I started. Razor hd's or Zeiss hd both in 10x42?????? I would love your opinon on these two or anything better in the 1,000 dollar range. Thanks again
What about meopta meostar b1? There is a good write up on here about them.
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