My first Columbian Blacktail

[joehunter8301]

I'm glad you gotm buddy you deserved every bit of him

 

[MattB]

Congrats on the buck - love the big forkies.

 

[RosinBag]

Nick, the map shows where Colombian blacktails are located and only Colombian blacktails. Your buck was shot in D3-D5 zone to be vague and not give up your location. The map shows your area as Colombian blacktail, mule deer mix, not one or the other. The deer there have features of Columbia Blacktails, but are certainly not true Columbia. Blacktails, but a cross breed of the two.

The record books are clear of the boundaries to keep the integrity of record books without question.

It is misleading to call your buck a Columbian Blacktail, it is not that.

I congratulate on your buck. Any buck taken with archery gear is a trophy in my book as I have not killed dozens with bow as others have.

I am not going to debate this topic as it is your thread. But true Columbian blacktails are not in the zone you harvested yours in.

This is not meant to slight your accomplishment in any way. Once again, congrats on your buck.

 

[Tag stew]

Very respectable buck for CA!!! Congrats

 

[Rizzy]

Nice Buck, Big CA forky for sure!

Did the tail have a black tip with a black line running up the middle? About half the ones I shot in the Sierras seemed to have that trait.

 

[HUNTMAN]

Nice buck , Congrats on making it happen.

 

[MattB]

To be fair to Nick, the CA DF&W map does reflect a narrow band of Columbian blacktails on the western edge to the Sierra Foothills that extends as far south as roughly Modesto. I do not know how the Department made that determination (be it DNA or otherwise), but from the pictures I have seen the deer in that area vary substantially from the coastal Columbian Blacktails I have expereince with (i.e. significantly larger/longer body, smaller ear proportions, lack of nose ring).

 

[bowuntr]

Interesting... P&Y and B&C are contributing to a extensive DNA study on this exact subject. I attended a seminar at the P&Y convention that was put on by the lead scientist of this study. What I learned is that Mule deer and Columbia Blacktail deer have distinct DNA profiles, unlike Whitetail and Coues Whitetail deer. For this study they collected DNA samples from hundreds of deer in California and used a pin map showing their findings. The deer on the western sierras (D3-5) were mostly Mule deer with about 25% being hybrid Mule/Blacktail deer... not one single pure Blacktail deer. There were some pure Blacktail deer in the central valley but most were clearly on the coast ranges. I would love to get ahold of that pin map which would put this debate to rest.

Sooo... I would say that Nick's deer is most likely a hybrid Mule/Blacktail deer or a Mule deer. This study supports P&Y/B&C boundary line for Columbia Blacktail and Mule deer... This line was drawn to error on the side of the smaller deer (Blacktail), to protect the integrity of the records... understanding that hybrids do exist. The line is not just the I5... some of it is actually west of the I5. This also supports the Ca F&G map... understanding that hybrids exist along their lines as well.

In conclusion... Nick shot a dandy of a buck... it's his buck and he can call it what ever he wants... Congrats buddy. I understand Doug's passion as well, as he is a diehard Columbia Blacktail hunter. Ed F

 

[Nick Muche]

I am not here to argue or debate with anyone, just wanted to share the deer I took from a zone that is depicted as a CB zone on the map above. I realize some of you are passionate about this subject and all that can be saved for another thread. Doug, there is a red strip on the eastern side of the white area. Either way, as stated in a previous post, I already knew prior to going that it wouldn't be eligible for P&Y, I am fine with that. I agree with them most of the time, but they are in no way the end all be all when it comes to bowhunting. They and their boundaries have no effect on where, what or how I hunt.

They look nothing like a Mule Deer...

 

[RosinBag]

Nick I will send you a message. Also feel free to post it if you would like.

 

[Rizzy]

That's a nice pic, it really shows the mass.

 

[Rizzy]

Interesting... P&Y and B&C are contributing to a extensive DNA study on this exact subject. I attended a seminar at the P&Y convention that was put on by the lead scientist of this study. What I learned is that Mule deer and Columbia Blacktail deer have distinct DNA profiles, unlike Whitetail and Coues Whitetail deer. For this study they collected DNA samples from hundreds of deer in California and used a pin map showing their findings. The deer on the western sierras (D3-5) were mostly Mule deer with about 25% being hybrid Mule/Blacktail deer... not one single pure Blacktail deer. There were some pure Blacktail deer in the central valley but most were clearly on the coast ranges. I would love to get ahold of that pin map which would put this debate to rest.

Sooo... I would say that Nick's deer is most likely a hybrid Mule/Blacktail deer or a Mule deer. This study supports P&Y/B&C boundary line for Columbia Blacktail and Mule deer... This line was drawn to error on the side of the smaller deer (Blacktail), to protect the integrity of the records... understanding that hybrids do exist. The line is not just the I5... some of it is actually west of the I5. This also supports the Ca F&G map... understanding that hybrids exist along their lines as well.

In conclusion... Nick shot a dandy of a buck... it's his buck and he can call it what ever he wants... Congrats buddy. I understand Doug's passion as well, as he is a diehard Columbia Blacktail hunter. Ed F

When I hunted the central Sierras it was not uncommon for me to see deer with the Inyo Mule deer tail trait and deer with the southern mule deer trait in the same group. Sometimes even the Does and fawns would show a difference. This must be a confusing subject for classifying and scoring deer in that area. I always used this as a guide:
http://www.dfg.ca.gov/wildlife/hunting/deer/docs/deerguide.pdf

 

[realunlucky]

This thread took a twist but some information came out and I for one learned something. Thanks again for sharing Nick loved the pictures and story. Congratulations again

 

[Bob]

Congrats Nick!! Now go get that Sitka!

 

[Timberninja]

Congrats on an amazing buck! Thanks for the story!

 

[Maxhunter]

Congrats on a nice buck.

 

[Zackman]

I love this topic! First off, I am friends with many of the guys posting on this thread. I respect them all as men, and I respect their abilities as bowhunters. I don't know Nick, but I congratulate him on a wonderful California buck! You should be thrilled with that buck. It is one that I would be extremely proud of myself.

I live in the aforementioned D3-D5, but have been making the 4-6 hour drive (one-way) since I started bowhunting at 12 (for the smart-asses, my parents drove me until I was 16 ). And that is because I have some type of disease where I have to hunt blacktails. It would be much more economical for me to hunt close to home, and the deer within an hour of my house can grow very big, but to me, and most of the hunters out there, they are not blacktails. I know they are similar in characteristics, and behavior, and size, and etc...But they are not. I also don't believe they are mule deer. They are their own entity.

I have always been fascinated by the fact that the deer in this area garner so much of the debate, when the true hybrids from the southern coast range don't get hardly any. Is it because we (California hunters) have accepted that southern bucks are not blacktails and therefore no longer feel the need to argue about it? I don't know. But I rarely hear anyone get into a discussion about those deer, which I feel are actually more similar to true coastal blacktails in Northern California, and I constantly see debates about deer from the Sierra foothills and their links to blacktails. The northern/southern boundary doesn't have anything separating them except an imaginary line! At least, for most of the D-zones, there is 50-100 miles of central valley and farmland separating them from coastal bucks. For record-keeping purposes, there needed to be a line, and somehow, many decades ago, B & C drew one that has held up as scientifically accurate. (As pointed out by Ed F.)

Even our friends to the north in Oregon/Washington, are pretty civil about the Cascade region. I think that area is as much of a mismatch between the two species of deer as anywhere in the west. Yet, for the most part, it seems that bucks taken from that area, although there are some disagreements, are understood to be non-blacktails. Again, only for record-keeping purposes.

Nick, you are right, boundaries or definitions should never decide where you hunt. You should hunt for yourself and your goals. But when, as a whole as hunters, we have accepted general boundaries for animals, if those boundaries are not upheld, then what is the point of having them. Brown bears/grizzlies for instance, SCI and B&C differ in opinion on the line of their separation, but I can’t go shoot a grizzly in the Yukon and call it a brown bear. Nor can I go to a two-bear area in Alaska, shoot two and call one a grizzly and one a brown bear. Although that thought has crossed my mind! Even though, scientifically speaking, they are the exact same animal. Nor can I shoot an elk in northeastern California and call it a Tule or Roosevelt. I understand the elk example is somewhat hyperbole, but the brown bear debate is far more convoluted than our mule deer/blacktail discussions. At least mule deer and blacktails are completely different species.

None of us had anything to do with the drawing of species lines, therefore, none of get to change them. I just find the fact that this particular issue is so touchy and continues to come up so frequently. Maybe I am partial to this because of where I live, but I find it fascinating!

I am a Regular member in Pope & Young, and an official measurer for P&Y and CBH (the state archery record-keeping organization). I do not agree with everything P&Y does either, however, I support the stances and regulations of P&Y far more than I do of California Game and Fish. Just because CA DFG classifies deer into 9 species, doesn’t make them right. I’m not saying P&Y (actually B&C, because they make all the boundaries) is 100% correct in their decisions, but I would tend to agree with them over a government agency that is as ridiculously managed as CA DFG. We need to have some sort of integrity for record-keeping purposes.

Congrats again to everyone on their California archery bucks so far this season. There have been some very good deer shot! Deer are no easier to kill because they live on one side of an imaginary line versus another. They are all an accomplishment to be proud of!

 

[bowuntr]

Zach... could not have said it better... congratulations Nick, can't wait for your Sitka Blacktail hunt... I'm real jealous about that one. Ed F

 

[Califhuntn]

Very nice California deer.

 

[trkyslr]

As Ed said zack stated it very well.... Imo living with these deer for several years and killing many, they dont look anything like a mule deer and show more characteristics of blacktails. That said they should have their own classification for book purposes as they cant even compete closely with a true mule deer. Enough of that cuz i could go on and on....

Again nick congrats and cant wait till we can hunt together again....