Mountain Maggots....I hate sheep (domestic)

[squeekieslayer]

I hate sheep more than anything in the whole world when I am hunting. I have had ZERO luck finding bulls/bucks in areas that were thick with them weeks previous while scouting. They run them out of the area in a hurry.

I don't know about all the disease stuff.... but I know one thing, if I had a spot picked out and was spending a ton of money for a nonresident tag without a ton of knowledge of where I was hunting... you bet your ass I would be in contact with the FS to find out if there were sheep there.... and if they were, I would go to the nearest drainage that has NOT had sheep in it yet. They are often holed up there. I notice elk don't talk as much with sheep around either.

JOe

 

[Hardstalk]

Pnemonia in wild sheep transmitted by domestics is a real issue. In MT some herds of wild sheep have been completely decimated. Other herds have had to have something like 90% of the herd killed by the Fish and Game to stop the transmission to the rest of the herd. And they are not trying to take back land. If I remember correctly, the rancher has a lease for something like 200 years to be able to run sheep on the forest service land. They are pretty much impossible to take away, so they don't even try. They look for mountain ranges that don't have leases to introduce sheep. I know of a mountain range that would be perfect for sheep, but they won't introduce them because there are too many sheep leases. I could be wrong on some of my specific #'s, but I've always been told that the domestic sheep dictate where they have wild sheep, and they don't try to get rid of domestic sheep to do so.

Isnt that the majority motivation behind wilderness sectioning of land. (Im not trying to be confrontational about the subject, just relaying what ive picked up from sheep herders) I've seen land taken from ranchers once deemed wilderness. Thats the only loophole to get the sheep off the land?

 

[bbrown]

Isnt that the majority motivation behind wilderness sectioning of land. (Im not trying to be confrontational about the subject, just relaying what ive picked up from sheep herders) I've seen land taken from ranchers once deemed wilderness. Thats the only loophole to get the sheep off the land?

Maybe I am not following you (and correct me if I am way off) but the area I hunt with cattle is wilderness and wilderness or not has no affect on them that I know of.

 

[Hardstalk]

Maybe I am not following you (and correct me if I am way off) but the area I hunt with cattle is wilderness and wilderness or not has no affect on them that I know of.

Im uneducated on the subject as well, I am under the impression that ranchers are not allowed to utilize wilderness deemed lands. Each state may be different? I know Ive witnesses ranchers ripping down wilderness signs and pissing all over them. (Could have just been a destructive drunk ranch hand?!)

 

[bbrown]

Ha - not really surprised.
I believe wilderness restrictions can vary from wilderness area to wilderness area but the general idea is the same nation wide (if that makes any sense) and it sounds like they are not allowing any new grazing leases inside wilderness for the most part but alot of old long term leases are basically grandfathered in. Although they still have to follow all the rules - no motors etc.

Not sure if this is exactly how it is but this is what I have been told.

 

[HellsCanyon]

Ha - not really surprised.
I believe wilderness restrictions can vary from wilderness area to wilderness area but the general idea is the same nation wide (if that makes any sense) and it sounds like they are not allowing any new grazing leases inside wilderness for the most part but alot of old long term leases are basically grandfathered in. Although they still have to follow all the rules - no motors etc.

Not sure if this is exactly how it is but this is what I have been told.

The Washington wilderness areas I'm familiar with don't allow grazing or even fire suppression/timber management. This non-use policy is hurting a lot of the production that wildlife thrive off of. A system without periodic disturbances becomes old and stagnant and less productive overtime.

As far as wildlife and livestock grazing go, I've seen plenty of elk and deer that follow where livestock graze because the livestock with the appropriate stocking rate will graze both old growth and new growth getting rid of what we call 'wolfy' material. During the growing season depending on location and timing you'll see a quick green up of new growth that is easy grazing for wildlife.

Sheep permits that I dealt with were moving in elevation every day "following the green" and after a week of rest you'd be hard pressed to find evidence of them being there. Also their browse on shrubs promotes a hedging effect that creates more new growth for the following years that once again, benefits wildlife.

As anything grazing is a management tool, used properly and you can do a lot of good in a relative short amount of time. Used improperly and you can do a lot of damage in an even shorter amount of time.

Mike

 

[bbrown]

Mike - Your last sentence there sums it all up well. Agree 100%

 

[tstowater]

Here is a link to the research on the disease transmission issue: http://www.wafwa.org/documents/wswg/RecommendationsForDomesticSheepGoatManagement.pdf

The Wild Sheep Foundation will gladly speak to anyone who is interested and/or has questions on the subject. Kevin Hurley and Gray Thorton are both great resources on the subject. If they don't know the answer, they will refer you to the people who do.

Read the executive summary at a minimum, please. This is "sound science". Unfortunately, it is the rams who usually wander into the domestics and then carry the disease back to the rest of the flock.

If you need more information, please let me know. Todd

 

[Hardstalk]

Here is a link to the research on the disease transmission issue: http://www.wafwa.org/documents/wswg/RecommendationsForDomesticSheepGoatManagement.pdf

The Wild Sheep Foundation will gladly speak to anyone who is interested and/or has questions on the subject. Kevin Hurley and Gray Thorton are both great resources on the subject. If they don't know the answer, they will refer you to the people who do.

Read the executive summary at a minimum, please. This is "sound science". Unfortunately, it is the rams who usually wander into the domestics and then carry the disease back to the rest of the flock.

If you need more information, please let me know. Todd

Thanks for the link todd, some solid middle grounded advice. I have learned more about animals in 2 beers with a rancher than I have in a lifetime of research. If anyone bumps into a weathered old sheep herder who sees things from a different perspective than a sportsman I highly encourage buying him a round. There packed full of wisdom!

 

[RStarck]

Use them to your advantage. They know the country, and often times where the animals are!

 

[Mike7]

The Washington wilderness areas I'm familiar with don't allow grazing or even fire suppression/timber management. This non-use policy is hurting a lot of the production that wildlife thrive off of. A system without periodic disturbances becomes old and stagnant and less productive overtime.

As far as wildlife and livestock grazing go, I've seen plenty of elk and deer that follow where livestock graze because the livestock with the appropriate stocking rate will graze both old growth and new growth getting rid of what we call 'wolfy' material. During the growing season depending on location and timing you'll see a quick green up of new growth that is easy grazing for wildlife.

Sheep permits that I dealt with were moving in elevation every day "following the green" and after a week of rest you'd be hard pressed to find evidence of them being there. Also their browse on shrubs promotes a hedging effect that creates more new growth for the following years that once again, benefits wildlife.

As anything grazing is a management tool, used properly and you can do a lot of good in a relative short amount of time. Used improperly and you can do a lot of damage in an even shorter amount of time.

Mike

From what I have seen, getting rid of fire suppression in the wilderness has been great for deer and elk. In fact, in places like the Eagle Caps in OR, I think this has helped neutralize some of the effects from wolves.

Also, just from anecdotal observation, but there seems to be a big difference between what a few free ranging cattle do to habitat and elk inhabitation (as described above by Mike) vs. a herd of sheep which eat many natural grasses/forbes down so low that they can completely alter the natural flora in a potentially harmful way.

 

[littlebuf]

I could be wrong but I think the majority of the trails In the wilderness (at least lots that ive been in) have there origins in sheep herders trails.

 

[HellsCanyon]

Also, just from anecdotal observation, but there seems to be a big difference between what a few free ranging cattle do to habitat and elk inhabitation (as described above by Mike) vs. a herd of sheep which eat many natural grasses/forbes down so low that they can completely alter the natural flora in a potentially harmful way.

Totally depends on timing of use. Most of the sheep permits that I dealt with were early season use and they'd range in elevations from 1200' to over 4000'. They'd start low with the spring green up and follow the green line up in elevation as the snow melted. If you were to check their grazing areas a week after they'd been through there you would be hard pressed to find plants with evidence of grazing. The soil has enough residual moisture and the plants have a large window for recovery. These areas get hit hard for a short amount of time and they respond excellent to it. Plants evolved with herbivores and often times benefit from some defoliation.

Fall grazing which is what most of you are dealing with and at that time plants have had time to set seed and reach their maturity for the season. As far as the plant goes it is not detrimental but it can reduce feed for wildlife. However most stocking rates have a sub 50% utilization level requirements which 'should' leave adequate feed for wildlife.

Littlebuff is correct most of the trails in the WA wilderness areas are from old sheep herders. There's one area where a herder got killed by a grizzly back in the day with a lot of his flock as well!

Mike

 

[mt hunter22]

I know my dad in nevada blames a lot on ranchers and sheep herders, my opinion is in general ranchers are good ,hardworking people who are just trying to make ends meet and provide for their families in the same way their fathers did,and i also think a lot of the guzzlers and such are partially put in and funded by ranchers, are there bad ones,,just like in everything else you bet ,but their are hunters who i certainly dont agree with their ethics.. i have to admit it is super frustrating to get to a beautiful big basin where in your dreams you can just picture a big ol mulie to find 500 sheep bawling and clinking around,but then i have to remember that they are making a living, and i am just out there to enjoy the country so i consider myself lucky to be able to hunt and move on to the next canyon..to each their own.

 

[littlebuf]

Littlebuff is correct most of the trails in the WA wilderness areas are from old sheep herders.

Mike

I was pretty sure that was the case. ironic that guys would hate them so much. if it weren't for them the trail you walked in on likely wouldn't have been there. certainly can understand the frustration of a herd of sheep in the basin you want to hunt though.

 

[desertcj]

At first, I didn't pay much attention to this thread because I've never seen open range sheep in CA. I did however do 9 1/2hrs of hiking/scouting yesterday and about 75% of the prime looking spots that had feed and water also had a 5-40 head of cattle. The trails were also BEAT TO DUST from all of the cows! I've seen pictures of deer right next to cows, so I guess at least in some cases cattle don't bother them. We actually came up on about 30 head that were hanging out next to a small stream in the wilderness. The ranchers had hauled in 4-5 salt/mineral licks and they were licking the snot out them! Of course that spot looked like a cattle lot and was a complete dust/mud bowl...

 

[chiefhoyt]

I noticed the same exact thing when i was scouting 3 weeks ago in CA. Cattle with bells everywhere and I was in about 6 miles

 

[AGPank]

In Colorado I think the ranchers are supposed to be off the forest by the 1st of September or something like that. Last year they were still up there. I watched from one vantage point that the elk would go running then not to far behind were herders and their dogs.

I hunt private land but had the neighbors cattle in on us. It's a small piece of property, about 300 acres and doesn't take to many trips of herders looking for strays to push the animals even if for a day or two.