Montana Region 1 Proposed District Closures

[mt100gr.]

Does anyone have any information regarding the proposal to close Districts 131, 132, 134, 141, 151 to Mountain Goat hunting?

MT FWP lists these changes on a "master list" of proposed changes and I am curious if anyone has heard any of the reasoning behind it. The 5 districts combined provide only 5 tags, one tag per district as of last year, so I cannot imagine it's a population viability concern.

I have personally accompanied goat hunters in 2 of the units, 3 times in the last 4 years for around 25 days hunted. We found plenty of goats and I simply cannot understand why these opportunities would be cut off.

Please look into this issue and leave FWP a comment if the subject moves you.

Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks :: 2018-2019 Antelope; Moose/Sheep/Goat/Bison and Bear/Lion/Wolf Hunting Seasons – Proposed

 

[MTguy0341]

Yeah I was a little confused onto their reasoning for giving out so few of tags. Especially for areas that seem to have decent goat populations. I haven't been in there the past couple years but would like to know more reasoning than just stating the closure. I commented on it a few days ago but mainly only towards the nannies accompanied by kids. That and the new youth hunting proposal. We've got until the 24th so hopefully there's some people leaving input.

 

[mt100gr.]

I was sent a copy of the most recent population study for MT goats. I haven't had a chance to read it in depth but my initial scanning of it piqued my interest and surprised me. Good things and eye-rollers, both.

If you are interested l, PM me your email address and I will send you the pdf. It's a 52 pager of science speak so hold onto your hat!! As a UM grad of the wildlife bio. program, I found it understandable and well written
- I don't necessarily agree with their approach or methods but it's interesting.

 

[Coulee Kid]

I have to first say that I always hate to see sportsman lose the opportunity to get one of these tags. I had a permit this year just east of those districts they are proposing of closing and I was surprised how few goats I found. I had a lot of bad luck with the area being closed due to fires and then getting snowed out but I spent as much time as I could in there. I called the biologist last year asking about the district but she had never been in that district other than one little corner in a helicopter or I am sure that district would be closing too. She said the other districts she was watching seemed to have a decline in numbers and she was not sure why. She said she has been in Montana for 3 years and before that she was in Alaska where there is a lot more goats.

 

[Flatgo]

looks like those districts are on the final proposed changes going to the commission. Its sad to see goat populations declining and hunters losing opportunity. Makes me wonder if they have a good count on the goats or just suspecting the population declining. I had a goat tag this past year in another part of Montana, and scouted the weekend after fwp flew the district. FWP Counted around 12 if i remember correctly, we counted 80 in two days. don't give much stock in aerial surveys for goats after that since most goat bed under cliff bands which would be hard to spot from the air. either way sad to see it go. I think those districts produce the biggest billies in the state too.

 

[damxam]

I spent over a week in 141 this season, saw more goats than elk/deer combined. Those areas are thick with predators. Not sure what the best course of action is, just hope we can manage for a stable population and opportunity for the future.

 

[Rckymtnshooter]

The link does not work. Any idea where this information can be found on fw p website ?

 

[mt100gr.]

I haven't checked fwp's site recently. That link was for the public comment section which closed 01/24. I will see if I can find something to look at. At this point I understand that fwp is moving forward with the proposed closures. And true to form, they open issues for public comment after they have already made up their mind.

That said, the study from which they are drawing their info differentiates native and non native goat populations around the state. Apparently the native populations are basically stagnating and hunting as a source of mortality MAY be enough to reduce overall numbers into a decline. Unfortunately, fwp is working with population ESTIMATES and has very little actual data. For example, HD 134 was estimated to have a population of 26. I personally counted well over 20 individuals (all age classes and sexes) on one mountain last October. HD 141 was estimated to have 50-some goats....etc....

Regardless, I believe these closures are preemptive and preventive in that they want to understand why the native goats are leaning toward decline before hunting is allowed. Unfortunately, I sincerely doubt appropriate funding will be allocated to study the goats. I do not believe that fwp is employing sound science on this matter but i also agree that it would be a tragedy if hunters in fact were a contributing factor to an eventual goat decline in region 1.

I am starting from scratch now, as I explore where to apply for 2018. I very much hope that I haven't hunted goats in my backyard for the last time already.

 

[mt100gr.]

Damxam - did you have the 141 tag this past year?

 

[damxam]

Damxam - did you have the 141 tag this past year?

I wish! Saw some really nice Billys, but was just chasing critters with my general tags

 

[BuzzH]

I remember when the entire west side of the Bitterroots was one unit and they issued 75 tags, then reduced it to 50 tags, and then finally went to drainage specific tags (about 20 total)...and now they issue only a couple tags.

They flat destroyed that goat herd by hunting it too hard, for too long, for too many years.

Sapphires, the same thing happened...shot wayyy too many goats for wayyy too long.

There is a difference between the introduced herds and the native populations in regard to the level of hunting they can tolerate.

Just another classic case, in a long line of things the FWP has done wrong. Managing for maximum opportunity, with no understanding of populations and population dynamics, has consequences.

 

[BuzzH]

mt100gr.,

Is the report you read the one by Bruce Smith and Nicholas DeCesare?

 

[mt100gr.]

Buzz - yes. A friend of mine contacted fwp asking for more in depth info re: the proposed closures and that article is what they sent back. Other than that, fwp did not cite other information.

 

[slick]

Just a thought but maybe RMGA can get on board and survey the piss out of the area and give FWP some feedback. Feel like that would be a win win.


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[mt100gr.]

I would absolutely volunteer to help count in 134 and 141!! Incredible country.

 

[Flatgo]

I would be more than happy to survey goats in any those districts. I think I had more fun scouting and watching goats than actually hunting goats when I had the tag. Awesome animal to watch in some of the prettiest country. If a goat survey gets set up count me in.

 

[slick]

Maybe it wouldn’t be a bad idea to show Pete that there is some interest in it from MT sportsman and woman with an email.

Also wonder why they don’t have a license plate for the organization?


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[mt100gr.]

I know at least 4 other guys that have been there and have been vocal about these closures. I know they'd be all over it if there was an Avenue to help collect real data on goats. I have a feeling that guys that have hunted these areas could be set up watching and counting goats very quickly. There are just some places that goats want to be and nobody knows these haunts like hunters.

Either way, I imagine fwp would be skeptical about what we non-biologists see out there so the only legitimate way to approach this would be through a third party such as RMGA.

I don't think it's crazy at all.

 

[BuzzH]

I think the approach you guys are discussing is great, someone should write up a proposal and get the ball rolling...just be willing to accept what you find as well as the proposed actions to make sure the goat populations are managed in a sustainable manner.

I've talked with guys that know their stuff in these units and they are pretty well aligned with the fact that the goats in those units are not doing as well as they once were, at all.

Worth a read too is "A beast the color of winter" by Douglas Chadwick...talks about, and parallels a lot of things in that report by Smith and DeCesare.

Its great to see interest in goats, in particular the native populations. An under-appreciated critter for sure. Was fortunate enough to hunt them in one of the non-native areas in 1998 in Montana.

 

[mt100gr.]

^^ THIS. agreed, a survey/ data collection / count would only serve to get the valuable, and expensive data needed to see what's going on with the goats. And it probably would have to be a couple years/seasons invested to gain that insight.

There wouldn't necessarily be any good news for hunters as a result. Participation would only be rewarding in that we as hunters could do something in an attempt to manage our goat populations.