Montana Mule Deer - First timer

[dirtytough]

Is there data that the does in Montana aren’t getting bred? How low is the B/D ratio?

If there isn’t any data out there then all the bios in this thread should offer to help the Montana game and fish.

For all the “you need to pass smaller, immature, etc, bucks” what is acceptable to shoot? Is it a certain age? Is it a certain score? Can you guys let me know the minimum size or age I should kill so the herd can rebound? I always thought it was does that actually had the fawns but in this day and age maybe it is possible the bucks have fawns also?



There was a podcast this spring/summer about how in the past the B/D ratios were low but the population was high. It’s a good listen.

 

[Dirtscoots]

If there is such a huge majority pushing for point restriction maybe legislation should be pushed for that. If a forked horn is legal and a res or nr want to shoot it pretty hard to judge. Having a general rut hunt definitely does not help Montana numbers. I’m sure predators play into numbers as well.

 

[Buglebrush]

Is there data that the does in Montana aren’t getting bred? How low is the B/D ratio?

If there isn’t any data out there then all the bios in this thread should offer to help the Montana game and fish.

For all the “you need to pass smaller, immature, etc, bucks” what is acceptable to shoot? Is it a certain age? Is it a certain score? Can you guys let me know the minimum size or age I should kill so the herd can rebound? I always thought it was does that actually had the fawns but in this day and age maybe it is possible the bucks have fawns also?



There was a podcast this spring/summer about how in the past the B/D ratios were low but the population was high. It’s a good listen.

A buck that runs himself ragged to breed a larger amount of does, may have a lower chance of surviving the winter.

 

[TheYukiYama]

Is there data that the does in Montana aren’t getting bred? How low is the B/D ratio?

If there isn’t any data out there then all the bios in this thread should offer to help the Montana game and fish.

For all the “you need to pass smaller, immature, etc, bucks” what is acceptable to shoot? Is it a certain age? Is it a certain score? Can you guys let me know the minimum size or age I should kill so the herd can rebound? I always thought it was does that actually had the fawns but in this day and age maybe it is possible the bucks have fawns also?

No need to be sanctimonious...

I think you are misunderstanding a lot of the points people are making. Shooting does has a population impact. Shooting immature bucks has a buck maturity impact...
When the population is high, there are still many bucks that survive to maturity so it isn't impactful.
Most here are just encouraging that rather than shooting a small buck, let it walk. If you really want a deer, shoot a wt.

Doesn't need to be an exact cut off. Hunters can decide what they consider mature. If you don't have any idea what an immature vs mature deer looks like, you shouldn't be hunting. Sure it'll differ some person to person, but if people generally were more discerning, we would have more and larger bucks on the landscape. I know this. You know this. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.. That everyone should just shoot anything that comes by if they are happy with it and not consider other hunters or the resource in general? That's quite the take....

 

[freezerfull]

APR’s may be a very short term benefit but are terrible long term. My home state is the perfect case study. After 30 years you get great frames with genetics for very weak forks. That’s what happens with unrestrained shooting of every 2yo crab claw 3pt.
Severely limiting or completely removing doe harvest and moving season dates up seems to be more beneficial, at least to get the overall numbers up.

I am optimistic with recently added mule deer doe harvest reduction things may stabilize in eastern Montana. However with the private land still okay to harvest them on it may depress this.

 

[Scottf270]

It's about age, not points, which is why point restrictions aren't the best tool. This is a two point problem. Low overall deer population numbers and buck age and size decrease.
Regardless of causes, if herd numbers are below objectives, no mule deer does should be harvested regardless of buck to doe ratios. To aid in a quicker recovery, buck tags should be reduced as well.
Once overall population numbers are at goal then you can start to manage for buck to doe ratios ,buck age class, and hunter opportunity. But it takes lower revenue from fewer tag sales which FWP lacks the courage to implement.

 

[freezerfull]

It's about age, not points, which is why point restrictions aren't the best tool. This is a two point problem. Low overall deer population numbers and buck age and size decrease.
Regardless of causes, if herd numbers are below objectives, no mule deer does should be harvested regardless of buck to doe ratios. To aid in a quicker recovery, buck tags should be reduced as well.
Once overall population numbers are at goal then you can start to manage for buck to doe ratios ,buck age class, and hunter opportunity. But it takes lower revenue from fewer tag sales which FWP lacks the courage to implement.

Sure wish there was a way to regulate age. I’ve chewed this over for quite some time. Outside spread of 20” min, erect ear tips good to go? Then we’d end up with a bunch of 18” wide bucks that were shot trotting away with their ears layed back haha. Although I’m not sure anymore than the number of 2pts shot and left lay or self reported in WA…

 

[dirtytough]

A buck that runs himself ragged to breed a larger amount of does, may have a lower chance of surviving the winter.

I would actually argue that if the buck to doe ratio was lower the bucks wouldn’t waste energy fighting and chasing other bucks off.

No need to be sanctimonious...

I think you are misunderstanding a lot of the points people are making. Shooting does has a population impact. Shooting immature bucks has a buck maturity impact...

I wasn’t talking about killing does but maybe I didn’t make that clear.

Yep I would rather have bigger bucks. Everyone would. But show me data that a herd will actually grow faster if there are more mature bucks in it.

When the population is high, there are still many bucks that survive to maturity so it isn't impactful.
Most here are just encouraging that rather than shooting a small buck, let it walk. If you really want a deer, shoot a wt.

There’s encouraging and then there’s shaming. It’s the dudes first western hunt.

Doesn't need to be an exact cut off. Hunters can decide what they consider mature. If you don't have any idea what an immature vs mature deer looks like, you shouldn't be hunting.

gotcha. There are a ton of 3 year old bucks that get killed in Montana every year. 145” type bucks. I’m guessing those are ones we should be passing on? Yet when someone kills a 190” 3 year old it’s fine? Both are the same age the rack is just bigger on one.

Sure it'll differ some person to person, but if people generally were more discerning, we would have more and larger bucks on the landscape. I know this. You know this. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.. That everyone should just shoot anything that comes by if they are happy with it and not consider other hunters or the resource in general? That's quite the take....

If people are happy with 2 points who cares? Not what I want to kill but oh well. Some people are happy with any 4 point. Some with a 150” plus. Some minimum 170”. There is always going to be someone that wouldn’t have shot the dink you did.

I pay a pretty penny every year to apply and hunt across the west. Some of that pays professionals with degrees to manage wildlife. If the professionals say it’s ok to kill something and it’s legal I’m fine with it. I’ll believe them before a few people on social media with zero data.

Do you have data that does aren’t getting bred? What’s the optimum buck/doe ratio to build a herd? What age buck is optimum to breed the does? Where does Montanas buck/doe ratio fall vs the optimum buck/doe ratio? If you don’t have answers to these it’s just more armchair quarterbacking.


What animal is basically managed by age in the US? Dall sheep. How are they doing population wise? Maybe they should raise it to 10 years old? Think that will help the population?

 

[AHayes111]

Sure wish there was a way to regulate age. I’ve chewed this over for quite some time. Outside spread of 20” min, erect ear tips good to go? Then we’d end up with a bunch of 18” wide bucks that were shot trotting away with their ears layed back haha. Although I’m not sure anymore than the number of 2pts shot and left lay or self reported in WA…

Break the kicker off of this buck and he may not qualify, Just not an easy way to get people to shoot older deer. After the age of two the range of antler size is just too great and people will constantly shoot the young buck with better antlers. The other two bucks in this picture are just as old and maybe older than the buck in the center. The one in the center is getting shot every time.

 

[freezerfull]

Break the kicker off of this buck and he may not qualify, Just not an easy way to get people to shoot older deer. After the age of two the range of antler size is just too great and people will constantly shoot the young buck with better antlers. The other two bucks in this picture are just as old and maybe older than the buck in the center. The one in the center is getting shot every time.
View attachment 833204View attachment 833205

I agree, very difficult to regulate mule deer harvest with aprs or spread restrictions. the hypothetical 20” rule would catch the majority of mature deer though, and weed out most all 2.5 yo and younger, and a few of the 3.5 yo bucks, unless your in country with some great genetics or an exceptional growth year. If I had to choose between an apr and spread for harvest restrictions I’d pick spread. It would definitely result in an older age class harvest average . It’s a pipe dream anyway lol.