Mono metal discussion

[35WhelenAI]

Lol, A bullet maker cannot make or design petals (that fragment/detach) to follow the wound channel. There are so many variables involved that is ridiculous at best.

Only way to guarantee petals follow the wound channel is to keep them attached to the bullet in the first place.

If those petals detach at different points in penetration and expansion, it throws a yaw or off-balance effect to the penetration, and the bullet can do interesting things. I've read at least a few times on this forum about guys seeing bullet impacts beyond the animal that we're not in line with the shot, bullets got off path as they penetrated the animal. I don't recall any loss of animals however, IMO, I like to keep things in one piece as consistency is better than not.

 

[omicron1792]

Lol, A bullet maker cannot make or design petals (that fragment/detach) to follow the wound channel. There are so many variables involved that is ridiculous at best.

Only way to guarantee petals follow the wound channel is to keep them attached to the bullet in the first place.

If those petals detach at different points in penetration and expansion, it throws a yaw or off-balance effect to the penetration, and the bullet can do interesting things. I've read at least a few times on this forum about guys seeing bullet impacts beyond the animal that we're not in line with the shot, bullets got off path as they penetrated the animal. I don't recall any loss of animals however, IMO, I like to keep things in one piece as consistency is better than not.

There is plenty of ballistic gel video that show this.

 

[06 SB]

I do not shoot monos out of every rifle but, if I do, it is a Barnes TTSX or TSX. They have been reliable in my 243s and 338Fed. I also bought some LRX for my 7mm-08 but have not loaded them yet. I see no reason to switch from Barnes.

 

[Ringbill27]

I also bought some LRX for my 7mm-08 but have not loaded them yet. I see no reason to switch from Barnes.

I just figured out a load with the LRXs and varget for my wife’s 7mm08. Need to get it across the chronograph.

 

[35WhelenAI]

If expansion and shedding of petals that go forward in different planes and angles is "following a wound channel" then you got it nailed.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Cutting edge bullets seem to provide the most uniform dispersion of petals as the shank moves forward in gel. With respect to a living animal with soft tissue and hard, skeletal portions, I don't see that being as much of a reality.

I've said this before, 30 years experience in the field, shooting Barnes monos, and I've never wanted for more. Petals that come off, simply another way of doing the same thing. Bullet weight with expansion and integrity is a constant. Petals coming off introduce a chaos factor that may or may not be beneficial depending on the angle of presentation for the shot.

 

[01Foreman400]

I’ll tell you my experience with Barnes and Hammers so take it with a grain of salt. I shot Barnes exactly for 18 seasons and killed over 100 critters with 13 different cartridges with them here in Georgia during that time. I was a Barnes guy through and through. Last year I decided to try Hammer Bullets since I had heard they get a little better velocity than Barnes and I had bought a .308 Win. with an 18” barrel to run a suppressor on. Hammer had just came out with their HHT (Tipped Bullet) and the lowest grain HHT in .308 they had at that time was 154 gr. I’ve always run the Barnes Bullets really fast but with not having an option 154 gr. bullet it was. I’ve always had good luck except on 1 rifle with getting pretty decent accuracy with Barnes. If I can’t 3/4” groups at 100 yards I keep trying. With that said I’ve gotten numerous .475” or smaller MOA groups with Barnes bullets over the years. The best being a .239” group out of a 270 WSM pushing a 110 gr. TTSX over 3,600 fps. So this past summer I started doing load development with the 154 gr. HHT’s. Talk about easy! I had a .179” load worked up in less than 10 shots. The velocity was right up there with a 30-06 as well. I was happy at the range but the real question was how would they do on game? I think we had a decent sample size from this fall using the HHT’s. I killed 14 does and 3 coyotes with them and my 2 boys killed 6 does with them. Most of the shots resulted in a DRT. If the deer did run they left an excellent blood trail and all of them ran less than 30 yards. In my experience they left better blood trails than I’ve seen with Barnes bullets. Maybe it was a fluke but I now have Hammer HHT bullets for my 6.5 CM’s and 7mm-08’s to work up loads for.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Thanks for the detailed info.

I could get into the tipped Hammers, accuracy of Hammers in general is great from what I have read and the extra velocity is never a bad thing.

What has been personal experience in velocity increase for guys who have shot Barnes and similar wt. hammers?

I'm getting 3030 fps with the 200 gr Barnes TTSX out of my 35 Whelen AI (25" bbl) with Power Pro Varmint and extrapolating Speer data for that powder and their 180 gr/220 gr bullets. Measuring case head expansion as well as watching for traditional signs of pressure to arrive at that safe max.

With that said, there is no need to run at that speed, I run it about 100 fps less for hunting loads. If it can't be done at that speed with a 200 gr bullet that opens to 3/4" expanded diameter across the petals, it probably doesn't need doing (not my words, but paraphrased from a writer years ago).

 

[Coueskiller43]

I ran the Barnes for 4-5 years until I found Hammers. Barnes worked fine for me and resulted in quite a few dead deer. The difference for me was the ease of load development, higher velocities and excellent accuracy with the hammers. I also prefer the way the petals shed off and create multiple wound channels. From my experience hammers perform as advertised in regard to the this. My longest shot with them so far was 487 on a blacktail. He was DRT and never got out of his bed. 270 wsm with 126 HH doing 3360. Last year I took a cow elk with a 6.5 PRC and 124 HH. Dropped in her tracks. Just pay attention to barrel twist when choosing you bullet.

 

[35WhelenAI]

The honest question I have, when/if Hammers do penetrate as well as Barnes, does the bullet diameter shank do the job as well on hard angle shots as a larger diameter Barnes that does not shed its petals on initial expansion? I would say not in terms of damage. Wouldn't disagree on a broadside shot the shrapnel from petals would create more damage in the vital cavity. However, when petals come off on a quartering away shot particularly, are the bullets as effective once they reach the vitals vs a bullet that still has full diameter when it reaches the vitals.

 

[Koda_]

The honest question I have, when/if Hammers do penetrate as well as Barnes, does the bullet diameter shank do the job as well on hard angle shots as a larger diameter Barnes that does not shed its petals on initial expansion? I would say not in terms of damage. Wouldn't disagree on a broadside shot the shrapnel from petals would create more damage in the vital cavity. However, when petals come off on a quartering away shot particularly, are the bullets as effective once they reach the vitals vs a bullet that still has full diameter when it reaches the vitals.

in short yes, the hammer shank is designed to penetrate.

Hammer has a youtube video somewhere describing how their shank is designed to work once the petals shed off, the result is a sharp or maybe jagged edged wadcutter shaped shank that aids penetration.

In full disclosure Im a new convert to Hammers too, due to many positive reviews from them. I switched to Barnes first and those are great bullets too, impressive terminal damage on the deer I took. I started reading about Hammers petals aiding in the wound channel and liked the idea better with the penetrating Hammer shank, especially if the shot isn't perfect (think like aiming for the heart). So Ive worked up a load to hunt with this year with confidence.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I like your point about if the shot isn't perfect, ancillary damage from the petals could hit the heart, damage lungs versus a mono that isn't placed where it was intended yet doesn't lose petals. I won't discount the opportunity to take advantage of margin for error that could be in my benefit. Personally, I have not had issues with monos that don't lose petals being properly placed, but to ignore that as a possibility is not acknowledging a potential reality.

As an aside, my son shot a lead cow dead on the sternum (dang near in self defense) as he was posted up watching a draw, at about 60 feet with a 110 TTSX from a 270 Winchester. She kept coming and coming straight at him, with a gaggle of elk in tow. We never did recover any of that bullet with an MV of 3400 fps, however, I did notice some smaller "wound channels" that exited the animal upon necropsy. I am fairly certain those were the petals that blew off at such short range and high velocity.

My son said she was coming at a quick trot and at the shot snow plowed (in 2' of snow) for about 3 feet to a dead stop and didn't move a muscle. I would attribute that to the CNS shock/disruption from a dead-on hit on the sternum/neck juncture at such short range.

 

[OXN939]

in short yes, the hammer shank is designed to penetrate.

Did some pretty extensive op testing of this last week. Killed both a Pronghorn and a cow elk with my 7mm-08 pushing 120 grain Hammers at a relatively mild 2850 FPS muzzle velocity. Pronghorn was about a 275 yard shot, the elk a little under a hundred. Bang flop on the Pronghorn, hit the elk in the lungs and she ran about 10 yards and started getting woozy, at which point I put a second round in her for insurance. Went down right there.





Interestingly, both rounds from the elk stopped in the hide on her far side. The first one hit a rib, which was clear from both its deformation and the wound cavity. Second one looks more like other projectiles I've seen dudes recover. In any case, all three rounds did exactly what they're supposed to do.



I recall there was a thread recently talking about 7mm-08 being light for elk. Not with these or, I suspect, any other quality copper mono. Guess I should look at joining a bingo league and clipping coupons, because I truly can't see a significantly better option than the 7mm-08 with copper 120s for anything other than exotics in the lower 48.

 

[Koda_]

The first one hit a rib, which was clear from both its deformation and the wound cavity. Second one looks more like other projectiles I've seen dudes recover. In any case, all three rounds did exactly what they're supposed to do.

In your photo it shows how after the petals break off it forms a sharp edge meplat which acts like a wadcutter increasing penetration of the shank. Those did exactly as they were supposed to do.
Congrats on the sucessful hunt.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Congrats! Same kind of performance you get from most copper bullets, whether they shed pedals or maintain weight.

 

[OXN939]

In your photo it shows how after the petals break off it forms a sharp edge meplat which acts like a wadcutter increasing penetration of the shank. Those did exactly as they were supposed to do.
Congrats on the sucessful hunt.

Core weight. All good in my book!