Moa vs hunting?

[wind gypsy]

That is my bad, I was a bow hunter exclusively from 18 -32 ish years old. Only been rifle hunting for a few years now. 500 seems like long range hunting to me, and I believe it should be considered long range for nearly everyone.

Agree.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Hit rates in vital sized targets- 12” or so, do not materially change from 1.5’ish MOA to .5 MOA. On top of that, there are functionally 0 .5 MOA field guns.

Even the difference between a true 2 MOA system and a 1 MOA system is not that great in the field on a 12” target at 600 yards.

When you say the gun's MOA in this case, do you normally mean for 10, 20, or 30 shots?

 

[Marbles]

Are you saying we can't learn something from guys that can do what we are trying to do.

But, those guys cannot do what I'm trying to do.

Most of the guys I see shooting those rifles would have a hard time walking to my shooting position, and a harder time not falling down the hill building the position.

Chasing MOA on the rifle from a bench is the easy part, I actually prefer it to chasing what will make me better because it is easy. I don't do it because at this point it is a waste of time and only real work will result in real improvement.

From a sand bag on the range that rifle and this shooter is 1.5 MOA for 30 rounds on a bad day.

Play with this, see how much making it 1 MOA will improve hit percentage at 400 yards vs improving my wind call from +/-8 mph to +/- 3 mph in mountain conditions with 5-15 mph winds.

108 ELDM moving 2800 fps. Use standard sea level atmospherics.

Hit Probability Calculator

A free hit probability calculator for long range shooting.

bisonballistics.com

 

[TaperPin]

There is a big advantage went using a real match grade barrel compared to a factory hammer forged barrel.

This is spot on. The benefits of investing in a top quality barrel get overlooked in the marketing of cool-looking stocks, fancy fluting, this year’s popular rifle finishes, the latest scope & mounts, fancy bipods, cans, etc.

 

[Dan Carey]

I’m saying that chasing the last 1% of accuracy and precision the way the professionals do is pointless in comparison to practicing shooting from field positions. The biggest source of error for most hunters is lack of stability in field shooting positions. Subtracting another .1” from your 10-shot bench-rest group is a waste of time and ammo for the average guy shooting at whitetails in the woods or an antelope in the sagebrush or whatever field scenario you prefer.

We aren’t trying to do what they are trying to do. They are doing a highly specialized and highly competitive simulacrum of what we are doing.

We should be focusing on fundamentals. For most hunters, the obsession with long range ballistic accuracy and precision is akin to practicing half court shots when we should be learning to dribble and make layups.

It wasn't meant to be a discipline question in my mind. Furthermore, 1" to 1.25" is more than 1%. Lastly if accuracy is not a consideration in hunting, why then is the Winchester model 94 not king of the hill. Anyone not interested in accuracy probably don't own a firearm.

 

[TaperPin]

Reducing a cone of fire by 1/2 MOA is the same effect as increasing the target size 1/2 MOA. I fail to see how that’s ever a bad thing on a hunting rifle.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

It wasn't meant to be a discipline question in my mind. Furthermore, 1" to 1.25" is more than 1%. Lastly if accuracy is not a consideration in hunting, why then is the Winchester model 94 not king of the hill. Anyone not interested in accuracy probably don't own a firearm.

This is disingenuous at best and pure straw man at worst. Of course accuracy is an important consideration. But as an element of shooting game, being able to get stable quickly will cover a multitude of other sins.

If I improve my group from 1.25” to 1”, that’s fine. Nothing wrong with it. It can be done with relative ease by switching from “factory ammo a rifle likes” to “hand loads a rifle likes.” But that difference won’t result in a hit vs miss at any normal hunting range. Even at 500 yards, 1.25 MOA groups will still hit comfortably inside a deer’s vitals - if the hunter has good fundamentals.

But learning to quickly shoot from a more stable position takes a hunter from an 8 MOA offhand shot to a 4 MOA seated shot to a 2 MOA seated supported shot to a 1 MOA prone shot. And learning to stalk up to within a reasonable range has a similar effect.

And practicing any or all of those will do me far more good than improving my bench rest group from 1.25 MOA to 1 MOA. And being able to not have to go prone or use a bipod or tripod or whatever will give me more viable opportunities than being reliant on a single position or piece of gear.

All other things being equal, more accurate rifles are a better option than less accurate rifles. But for investment of time and money, improving the size of your bench rested groups quickly runs into diminishing marginal returns. Most modern rifles, optics, and ammunition are already so good that the shooter’s lack of skills are the problem, not the rifle, the optics, or the ammo.

A hunter who has the 90% solution in terms of ballistic and mechanical precision and accuracy (good ammo, good rifle, and a good sighting device) is foolish to spend more time and money trying to improve that to the detriment of practicing field shooting.

As for the venerable Model 94 not being “king of the hill…” what does that even mean? A .30-30 Winchester retains more than enough accuracy, precision, and “wallop” to comfortably kill any North American game animal at the average hunter’s normal range. Just because it is out of fashion doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. There are tons of more modern cartridges that do nothing more than provide similar “power” to a .30-30. I’m totally confident that I could take a .30-30 carbine out and fill my deer tags every year if that’s what I wanted to carry. When it comes to shooting, I know how to dribble and make layups, even if I don’t attempt half court shots. And practicing half court shots isn’t going to make me more successful as a hunter.

I suppose that if “hunting” means sitting in a blind at one end of a bean field and shooting animals, then by all means focus on improving the accuracy and precision of bench rested groups. I won’t say “that’s not hunting.” But if it involves any sort of movement on the hunter’s or animals’ part, then I recommend practicing field shooting positions.

 

[nm.otter]

Spend ten minutes playing with WEZ or another hit probability calculator. Please.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Reducing a cone of fire by 1/2 MOA is the same effect as increasing the target size 1/2 MOA. I fail to see how that’s ever a bad thing on a hunting rifle.

How much time and money does it take to go from a 1 MOA group to a 1/2 MOA group?

Not from 16 to 8, or 8 to 4, or 4 to 2, or 2 to 1. Those are all easily done with modern methods and equipment. But once you are at or close to 1 MOA, the time and money needed to halve it again goes up immensely. And the benefits become essentially irrelevant on animals with 8” vitals below 500 yards.

Telling a hunter to buy a $500-1000 match barrel instead of $500-1000 worth of practice ammunition is just pointless once he’s shooting 1” to 1.5” groups from a bench. At that point, his maximum range is whatever distance he can hit 10/10 inside that 8” circle from a given position and under field conditions. For some folks, the maximum range offhand is 50 yards or maximum range with any wind is 200 yards. Or whatever. And getting a match barrel or “better ammo” won’t increase the maximum range offhand or in the wind any appreciable amount.

I understand the temptation. It’s fun to shoot tiny little groups on paper. It builds confidence in ourselves and our equipment. But in non-static hunting situations, that ability and that confidence is hollow.

 

[eric1115]

It wasn't meant to be a discipline question in my mind. Furthermore, 1" to 1.25" is more than 1%. Lastly if accuracy is not a consideration in hunting, why then is the Winchester model 94 not king of the hill. Anyone not interested in accuracy probably don't own a firearm.

Honest question, what do you think is the biggest contributing factor to poor shot placement for most "serious" hunters?

Mechanical precision of their weapon system, or their skill in employing it in positions actually usable in the field?

 

[Dan Carey]

This is disingenuous at best and pure straw man at worst. Of course accuracy is an important consideration. But as an element of shooting game, being able to get stable quickly will cover a multitude of other sins.

If I improve my group from 1.25” to 1”, that’s fine. Nothing wrong with it. It can be done with relative ease by switching from “factory ammo a rifle likes” to “hand loads a rifle likes.” But that difference won’t result in a hit vs miss at any normal hunting range. Even at 500 yards, 1.25 MOA groups will still hit comfortably inside a deer’s vitals - if the hunter has good fundamentals.

But learning to quickly shoot from a more stable position takes a hunter from an 8 MOA offhand shot to a 4 MOA seated shot to a 2 MOA seated supported shot to a 1 MOA prone shot. And learning to stalk up to within a reasonable range has a similar effect.

And practicing any or all of those will do me far more good than improving my bench rest group from 1.25 MOA to 1 MOA. And being able to not have to go prone or use a bipod or tripod or whatever will give me more viable opportunities than being reliant on a single position or piece of gear.

All other things being equal, more accurate rifles are a better option than less accurate rifles. But for investment of time and money, improving the size of your bench rested groups quickly runs into diminishing marginal returns. Most modern rifles, optics, and ammunition are already so good that the shooter’s lack of skills are the problem, not the rifle, the optics, or the ammo.

A hunter who has the 90% solution in terms of ballistic and mechanical precision and accuracy (good ammo, good rifle, and a good sighting device) is foolish to spend more time and money trying to improve that to the detriment of practicing field shooting.

As for the venerable Model 94 not being “king of the hill…” what does that even mean? A .30-30 Winchester retains more than enough accuracy, precision, and “wallop” to comfortably kill any North American game animal at the average hunter’s normal range. Just because it is out of fashion doesn’t mean it doesn’t work. There are tons of more modern cartridges that do nothing more than provide similar “power” to a .30-30. I’m totally confident that I could take a .30-30 carbine out and fill my deer tags every year if that’s what I wanted to carry. When it comes to shooting, I know how to dribble and make layups, even if I don’t attempt half court shots. And practicing half court shots isn’t going to make me more successful as a hunter.

I suppose that if “hunting” means sitting in a blind at one end of a bean field and shooting animals, then by all means focus on improving the accuracy and precision of bench rested groups. I won’t say “that’s not hunting.” But if it involves any sort of movement on the hunter’s or animals’ part, then I recommend practicing field shooting positions.

And, I sure you can walk on water. Bring your 30-30, I have a 6.5X284 that would like to meet you.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

And, I sure you can walk on water. Bring your 30-30, I have a 6.5X284 that would like to meet you.

Shoot a Carl Ross drill with your 6.5x284 and post it up in the “what did you do at the range today” thread.

Thread 'What did you do at the range today?'

Aug 15, 2025

I searched, but did not find an existing thread on this topic (maybe I didn't search hard enough?). Anyway, here's my attempt to share some of what I did at the range and some of the data I recorded. Feel free to add your pictures and reports, if you like.

I finally got admitted to the local range - Rivanna Rifle and Pistol Club - so I no longer need to drive four hours to the farm whenever I want to shoot. To celebrate the occasion, I got out three rifles that needed to be sighted in. It was a glorious morning and some of the most fun I have had in a while. Never mind the dudes shooting...

• Q_Sertorius
• Replies: 68
• Forum: Firearms

• 

Here is a link to the drill and the required targets.

Thread 'Equipment versus practice posts and Rifle practice/shooting'

Mar 31, 2020

This isn’t in response to anyone I particular, but there is an up tick in the amount of “I want a XXXX distance hunting rifle” traffic the last few months. I am getting a lot of questions relating to this, which I do not mind helping, but thought a public post might help answer some questions. It’s an attempt to get to actually using your rifles.


People online tend to act like 600/800/whatever yards is a rifle, cartridge and BDC scope purchase away. When someone asks for advice, or says I’m building an -insert whatever rifle/cartridge you want-, people are discussing hardware not...

• Formidilosus
• Replies: 768
• Forum: Firearms

• 

I’ll borrow my old .30-30 from my nephew and do the same. It might be a couple of weeks before I see him again. Or, if you don’t want to wait, I’ll do the same with any of my hunting rifles this Friday morning. Of course, I do have a broken leg right now, so consider that a handicap. Loser has to make his forum signature, “[winner’s name] outshot me” for one month. Deal?

 

[Steve300xcw]

Honest question, what do you think is the biggest contributing factor to poor shot placement for most "serious" hunters?

I'll say its a tie, between shooting at an animal instead of a spot. And shooting farther than they are capable of accurately shooting.

 

[Dan Carey]

Shoot a Carl Ross drill with your 6.5x284 and post it up in the “what did you do at the range today” thread.

Thread 'What did you do at the range today?'

Aug 15, 2025

I searched, but did not find an existing thread on this topic (maybe I didn't search hard enough?). Anyway, here's my attempt to share some of what I did at the range and some of the data I recorded. Feel free to add your pictures and reports, if you like.

I finally got admitted to the local range - Rivanna Rifle and Pistol Club - so I no longer need to drive four hours to the farm whenever I want to shoot. To celebrate the occasion, I got out three rifles that needed to be sighted in. It was a glorious morning and some of the most fun I have had in a while. Never mind the dudes shooting...

• Q_Sertorius
• Replies: 68
• Forum: Firearms

• 

Here is a link to the drill and the required targets.

Thread 'Equipment versus practice posts and Rifle practice/shooting'

Mar 31, 2020

This isn’t in response to anyone I particular, but there is an up tick in the amount of “I want a XXXX distance hunting rifle” traffic the last few months. I am getting a lot of questions relating to this, which I do not mind helping, but thought a public post might help answer some questions. It’s an attempt to get to actually using your rifles.


People online tend to act like 600/800/whatever yards is a rifle, cartridge and BDC scope purchase away. When someone asks for advice, or says I’m building an -insert whatever rifle/cartridge you want-, people are discussing hardware not...

• Formidilosus
• Replies: 768
• Forum: Firearms

• 

I’ll borrow my old .30-30 from my nephew and do the same. It might be a couple of weeks before I see him again. Or, if you don’t want to wait, I’ll do the same with any of my hunting rifles this Friday morning. Of course, I do have a broken leg right now, so consider that a handicap. Loser has to make his forum signature, “[winner’s name] outshot me” for one month. Deal?

You are not serious. My 6.5 is a thousand yard BR gun. However, I never back down from a true face to face with witness's present challenge.
So, I live in AZ. We have ranges here suitable for any competition you could want. Come on down and bring cash. This is going to be a fun deal as I have good video equipment. If by some chance you can out shoot me with any type firearm I will post the video in full.
So, lets play. I will do any type of competition you are capable of. Rifle, handgun, shotgun and air rifle.
BTW bring cash, and I don't mean a little. Everyone needs a lesson in life, maybe you are the one to teach me mine.

 

[TaperPin]

How much time and money does it take to go from a 1 MOA group to a 1/2 MOA group?

$1000 barrels aren’t guaranteed to all shoot 1/2 MOA but the odds go way up over mid tier or factory. For hunting chambers I tend to be happy if a good barrel to keeps everything less than 3/4 MOA, but I don’t tend to tinker much with loads.

My first good barrel was better than average and my entire load development process was loading 5 cases with increasing amounts of RL22 topped with 160 Partitions to find a maximum. The next 5 shots were less than 1/2 MOA, best group I’ve ever shot. Every 5 shot group after that with 154 gr Interlocks or Partitions could be stacked on top of each other and not be over 1/2 MOA. Never felt the need to experiment with other powders or seating depths.

That was with standard RCBS fl dies, ordinary beam scale, bullets .020” off the lands, nothing done to the inexpensive federal cases other than annealing necks every 5 shots and trimming to length. No weighing cases/bullets, no fancy bullet seater, no single digit SD, no tumbling brass. Easy peazy.

 

[TaperPin]

Today is the best time ever for shooters looking for accuracy. My 22 creed barrel is a Shilen prefit match grade (not select match) and is A LOT of barrel for less than $400 delivered from midway. I’m looking forward to seeing how good it turns out to be with a little load development. When screwed onto my $250 used Remington receiver I don’t know of many combinations that can match it for the price.

 

[Dan Carey]

Years ago I was screwing on 40-50 Shilen barrels a year. About the only difference in the grades is the cost. Here is how it is done. The lapping machine laps all stainless barrels. Then they need X amount of SM so they airgauge barrels till they get that number and all the rest are match. So you can get a great match grade and not all SM's are great. Very few of their barrels not up to par.

 

[wapitibob]

At what point does shooting for a smaller and smaller group become self gratification? Is there a point where tweaking a gun / cartridge has no real world effect on your hunting abilities, lets say out to 500 yards. Does a 1.25 moa group kill less then say a 1 moa group. And I am talking about just the gun, not the shooter. I understand the need for the shooter to practice and be able to make the shot. What I am curious about is just the weapon system. Same shooter, one gun shoots 1 moa and another that shoots 1.25, would there be a measurable difference in the amount of animals that will be put in the freezer. And if so what would you say the tipping point would be?

If 500 yards is a distance you'll shoot, I'd be spending most of my range time at 500. You'll know max group size and it's not getting bigger if you get closer.