Match bullet jacket thickness

[Wrench]

I do not doubt that at all.

Cutting 6.5 150 & 7mm 183g smk's are noticeably different, that is what caught my attention.

The ballistician at nosler and I were discussing how a rifle that will shoot just about anything well wouldn't shoot a lrab. The lrab has a different material that causes the dwell time in the leade to vary on guns with a sharp transition. He explained it much better than I can....but essentially the primer event pushes the bullet a bit before the burn event is at full zoot. The bullet engages the rifling and will stall or dwell until pressure is great enough to propel the bullet. The bullet can be "sticky" and hang up a bit more sometimes....thus causing bizarre velocity spreads and accuracy issues in those rifles.

 

[Taudisio]

The ballistician at nosler and I were discussing how a rifle that will shoot just about anything well wouldn't shoot a lrab. The lrab has a different material that causes the dwell time in the leade to vary on guns with a sharp transition. He explained it much better than I can....but essentially the primer event pushes the bullet a bit before the burn event is at full zoot. The bullet engages the rifling and will stall or dwell until pressure is great enough to propel the bullet. The bullet can be "sticky" and hang up a bit more sometimes....thus causing bizarre velocity spreads and accuracy issues in those rifles.

I shoot the 210gr ablrs, I’ll cut one in half and let you know how hard or soft they are.

 

[khuber84]

There was a thread on long range huhting where a ton of people sent in samples of almost every bullet out there, a guy was sectioning them out just like this. I'll see if I can't find the thread.

 

[JGRaider]

As far as long-"skinney" high BC bullets go, the 6.5mm 139 Scenar is king, IMO/IME.

 

[khuber84]

As far as long-"skinney" high BC bullets go, the 6.5mm 139 Scenar is king, IMO/IME.

The lapua Scenar has a pretty anemic g7 of 280-285. I've heard they kill well tho. That low of bc in that weight class, might as well shoot a 6mm 105 or heavier. It'll outclass that 65 in all manners, ballistcally or shootability.

 

[JGRaider]

The lapua Scenar has a pretty anemic g7 of 280-285. I've heard they kill well tho. That low of bc in that weight class, might as well shoot a 6mm 105 or heavier. It'll outclass that 65 in all manners, ballistcally or shootability.

You've obviously never actually used any?

 

[khuber84]

You've obviously never actually used any?

Have you looked at all the AB profiles on applied ballistics? There 4 samples ran over the AB Mobil radar, and they average 278g7 bc, AB states 285.. You can have the BC of a bullet off by 5% and it'll make minimal to no difference on drop/wind inside 1k yards, can be off by 10% and see minimal to no difference inside 700y. Bc has to be tuned 1200-1400y, that's where the smallest changes actually show up. If you don't shoot them past 800y, yeah a 300g7 will dope out near the same as a 285g7. Scenar kill and shoot well from all accounts, but are outclassed bc wise by nearly every available bullet in the same weight class

 

[TxLite]

Also, those pictures of the TGK are pretty eye opening. I was considering using the 110gr .257 as a lighter option in my 25 cals but think ill just stick to the 133 and 134. Its too bad that the Tmk doesn't have as much support as the tgk.

At moderate ranges I’ve had great luck with the tgk in 6.5 creedmoor and 7mm-08. I wouldn’t be afraid to use it

 

[WKR]

At moderate ranges I’ve had great luck with the tgk in 6.5 creedmoor and 7mm-08. I wouldn’t be afraid to use it

What is your definition of moderate?

 

[JGRaider]

Have you looked at all the AB profiles on applied ballistics? There 4 samples ran over the AB Mobil radar, and they average 278g7 bc, AB states 285.. You can have the BC of a bullet off by 5% and it'll make minimal to no difference on drop/wind inside 1k yards, can be off by 10% and see minimal to no difference inside 700y. Bc has to be tuned 1200-1400y, that's where the smallest changes actually show up. If you don't shoot them past 800y, yeah a 300g7 will dope out near the same as a 285g7. Scenar kill and shoot well from all accounts, but are outclassed bc wise by nearly every available bullet in the same weight class

I could give a ratsazzz what the BC profiles say. I've shot them out to 900 yards on targets, 600 or so on hogs and yotes. They are super easy to load, tune, and are superbly accurate. Top it off they are a super solid on game performer. 95%+ of big game kills occur under 350 yards anway. Fact is most LR wannabe's are not great at the wind doping game and can't shoot good enough for any of what you posted to matter.

I'll ask again, have you actually used any?

 

[TxLite]

What is your definition of moderate?

Furthest shot to date with them is a coyote at 420 yards. Can’t really comment on bullet performance as it was a headshot.

Everything else has been under 150 yards and the bullet has performed great on hogs, axis and whitetail. I’ve had a couple pass through but generally I find it on the other side of the hide with the core still inside the cup. I pulled them apart for this pic.

I wouldn’t hesitate to shoot them as far as they will stay above 1900or so fps. Sierra says 1800 if I recall, but I like having a buffer zone.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Have you looked at all the AB profiles on applied ballistics?

Don't waste your effort. I doubt there will be any looking at or listening to anything that opposes "experience".

 

[JGRaider]

Don't waste your effort. I doubt there will be any looking at or listening to anything that opposes "experience".

You got that right......sure beats reading about it on the internet that's for sure.

 

[khuber84]

I could give a ratsazzz what the BC profiles say. I've shot them out to 900 yards on targets, 600 or so on hogs and yotes. They are super easy to load, tune, and are superbly accurate. Top it off they are a super solid on game performer. 95%+ of big game kills occur under 350 yards anway. Fact is most LR wannabe's are not great at the wind doping game and can't shoot good enough for any of what you posted to matter.

I'll ask again, have you actually used any?

900y, there ya go. A 290 VS 305g7 at 900y, there's not a shootable difference, unless you can hold 1/3moa in the shooter/system. And you normally engage inside 600y. This tells me all I need to know. Keep shooting your low bc scenars. I've shot 1k of the 105 Scenar, indeed they are accurate, the BC is junk for its weight class, like ALL scenars.

 

[ElPollo]

I could give a ratsazzz what the BC profiles say. I've shot them out to 900 yards on targets, 600 or so on hogs and yotes. They are super easy to load, tune, and are superbly accurate. Top it off they are a super solid on game performer. 95%+ of big game kills occur under 350 yards anway. Fact is most LR wannabe's are not great at the wind doping game and can't shoot good enough for any of what you posted to matter.

I'll ask again, have you actually used any?

I will ask if you have ever looked at the wound channel profiles that Scenars produce. I’ve used them on game and I got in there up to my elbows to see what they really did.

My opinion was that they are A) expensive for what you are getting, B) Are pretty meh in terms of BC for a match bullet but are generally pretty accurate, and C) they are slow to upset and fragment resulting in limited damage to the front side organs and a trumpet shaped wound channel. My experience with them was with impacts on the 2300-2400 fps range which is not what I would call fast by any means. I’ve seen lots of people say they kill well, but most of those people are focusing on high shoulder shots that target the nerve bundle in that area. The result of these shots is similar to a CNS hit but they tend to impact more meat. If someone is focusing on in the crease or behind the crease shots on deer, there are lots of better options that will result in quicker kills and less tracking. They might be a decent bullet on bigger game like elk, but my experience suggests that Berger VLD and hybrid target bullets do pretty much what Scenars do and maybe a bit more consistently. As far as the long range performance goes, I would not really want to use either Bergers or Scenars for that because both have a higher minimum fragmentation velocity than something like an ELDm or a TMK.

 

[JGRaider]

My experience says that the VLDH sucks for hunting deer, aoudad, and pigs. No I haven't done an autopsy on game I've killed with the Scenar. What I do know is they make a caliber-sized entry, and a quarter sized exit which is as close to perfect as you can get IMO. These results on about 100 hogs and 50 or so whitetail does, 3 mature mule deer bucks. Game dies very quickly when the bullet is put where it's supposed to and I have enough experience with it by now that I don't obsess over miscellaneous nonsense like wound channels, BC comparisons, etc.

 

[JGRaider]

900y, there ya go. A 290 VS 305g7 at 900y, there's not a shootable difference, unless you can hold 1/3moa in the shooter/system. And you normally engage inside 600y. This tells me all I need to know. Keep shooting your low bc scenars. I've shot 1k of the 105 Scenar, indeed they are accurate, the BC is junk for its weight class, like ALL scenars.

Keep reading all the internet data and it will enhance your guessing.....you're doing real good as it's obvious you've never used any and only read about it. It's quite laughable.

 

[ElPollo]

My experience says that the VLDH sucks for hunting deer, aoudad, and pigs. No I haven't done an autopsy on game I've killed with the Scenar. What I do know is they make a caliber-sized entry, and a quarter sized exit which is as close to perfect as you can get IMO. These results on about 100 hogs and 50 or so whitetail does, 3 mature mule deer bucks. Game dies very quickly when the bullet is put where it's supposed to and I have enough experience with it by now that I don't obsess over miscellaneous nonsense like wound channels, BC comparisons, etc.

I’m glad you are such a smart and experienced hunter, and I’m happy that we are not competing for bullets from distributors. Hope you enjoy those Scenars. I would give you mine if I had any left.

 

[JGRaider]

I’m glad you are such a smart and experienced hunter, and I’m happy that we are not competing for bullets from distributors. Hope you enjoy those Scenars. I would give you mine if I had any left.

I sure don't need anything you hunt with. So how many Scenar autopsy's you done? One?

 

[ElPollo]

I sure don't need anything you hunt with. So how many Scenar autopsy's you done? One?

You are welcome to my information. And I will even provide it without sarcasm.

I killed four deer with 0.264 136 gr Scenar -L bullets, and that was enough for me to make my decisions on the bullet. All four did pretty much the same thing. The bullet tumbles, crushing the hollow nose cavity and then fragments. All four shots were on whitetail does. Three were broadside shots behind the shoulder that tumbled without expansion or fragmentation through the onside lung and heart area and fragmented out the offside lung. The fourth was chest shot on a doe facing me that tumbled intact through the entire heart lung cavity and started to fragment at the diaphragm, liver and rumen. Muzzle velocity was about 2500 fps and all shots were between 50 and 120 yards. Average distance travelled after the shot was about 100 yards, with a range of 60-150 yards.

I don’t have wound channel pictures, but the broadside shots were all a bullet sized entry, a slightly larger hole in the onside lung with some keyholing, and about a 2 to 2.5 inch hole through the offside lung with about a 1-1.5” exit. All of broadside shots were slightly behind the heart. The head-on shot was a bullet-sized entry that went between the lungs and tumbled, severing the arteries above the heart. There was a sideways bullet hole through the diaphragm and the bullet fragmented from there ending up in the rumen with no exit.

Does Scenars kill deer? Yes, but they can sometimes run a ways after being shot if it’s not a CNS shot. My preference for deer sized game is a bit more front-loading to the wound channel, which takes out both lungs and shortens the need for tracking.

I view Scenars as a step up from monos and bonded bullets in terms of killing potential. But I am not generally a fan of tumble-to-fragment bullets (e.g. Scenars and Bergers) as I think they are slightly less predictable and have a longer neck to their wound channels. Tipped fragmenting match bullets tend to be more consistent across a wider range of velocities, tend to have lower minimum velocities to fragment, and provide a more football shaped wound channel with a shorter neck.

When I kill something, I process all my own game so I know exactly what a bullet is doing. Your mileage may vary. And you are welcome to ignore all of this if you choose. My impression is that you tend to post here for your own edification and aren’t really here to learn from anyone else.