Loss of endurance on Keto

[Frito]

There are a lot of conflicting ideas among dietary experts about the benefits, safety and effectiveness of being in, and staying in ketosis.

I think anyone who really wants to take on this diet needs to read a few books written by doctors who explain the actual biochemistry of the whole deal, and then read some of the opposition's points of view. See if you can weed out any deception and maybe prove it or disprove it to yourself. It might not work for everyone.

Reading all you can about it will help you do it correctly and not possibly be missing a piece of the puzzle that could be holding you back. You won't be having your cake or eating it.

My bias is a product of it working nearly miraculously for me and my wife.

A good bunch of books to check out that really get into depth on the science of it all and also explain the origins of most dietary advise and funding (which leads you into a wall of corruption) include:
WHEAT BELLY and UNDOCTORED, by Dr. Davis
THE OBESITY CODE, by Dr. Fung
THE BIG FAT SURPRISE, by Nina Teicholz
and for fun and more prospective, LIES MY DOCTOR TOLD ME, by Dr. Berry and KETO CLARITY, by Jimmy Moore

Good stuff.

 

[cured_ham]

A good bunch of books to check out that really get into depth on the science of it all and also explain the origins of most dietary advise and funding (which leads you into a wall of corruption) include:
WHEAT BELLY and UNDOCTORED, by Dr. Davis
THE OBESITY CODE, by Dr. Fung
THE BIG FAT SURPRISE, by Nina Teicholz
and for fun and more prospective, LIES MY DOCTOR TOLD ME, by Dr. Berry and KETO CLARITY, by Jimmy Moore

The Ken Berry book is some good stuff. While not entirely Keto focused checkout this podcast with Paul Saladino. He references several studies comparing athletic performance on a ketogenic diet to a high carbohydrate diet. Look through the show notes to see when to listen. https://bengreenfieldfitness.com/podcast/nutrition-podcasts/carnivore-diet/

 

[Frito]

I've actually followed Dr. Berry quite closely. I enjoy his opinion. I've also applied quite a few of the theories in his book, and they actually pan out to my favor. One interesting chapter he has in the book is about the sun and removing refined carbs, and limiting carbs in general making you less sensitive to burning. I have found this to be absolutely true with me.

Don't mean to hijack this thread, but honesty there are many pieces to the optimal health puzzle. Ketosis is a small piece that needs to be in conjunction with other pieces. Omega 3's , Vitamin D, saturated fats, magnesium, etc, etc, the list goes on.

I was always fortunate to be in a healthy atmosphere, leading a very active life. I just wish I would have been interested in this stuff when I was in my 20's and early 30's. My potential would have been much better. I was getting all my nutritional information from stupid sources like Men's Health, food and supplement adds. And even worse....the FDA.

 

[cured_ham]

Ah the FDA, AKA the reason we are all in this mess.

 

[mtnbiker208]

fad diets work to lose weight, but eventually you have to move to a good diet to keep going.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

When you have zero carb intake, your body’s first step is to utilize glycogen (carbohydrate in storage form) stores in your liver and muscles to keep your blood sugar up and deliver energy to the rest of the body. Glycogen is what keeps your muscles supplied with energy during exercise, especially anaerobic (fast run, weight lifting, etc). On keto, even before you start exercising you are essentially at the bottom of the barrel for muscle energy.

If you can keep the exercise mostly aerobic you can keep shedding fat. But you absolutely will not get good athletic performance without some carb intake.

EXACTLY!!!

Energy burn flow: Sugar > glycogen stores (liver, muscles) > fats > muscles.
You don't have enough "ideal fuel" if you will.
Keto with some ideal fats/carbs to balance it out.

 

[Frito]

fad diets work to lose weight, but eventually you have to move to a good diet to keep going.

The Keto Diet is definitely the fad right now, no doubt, but when done right it is a good diet, and a very complete one. It's a very natural diet as well. It's interesting to look at the history of the human diet and the history of produce as you know it today, and how none of it existed in it's form that we know today, even 100 years ago, much less all the carbohydrates that we consume today. It's not a bacon diet, and if done the right way it's very "good". Grains, sugars, and starches are not necessary for good health or performance once you curve your metabolism and biochemistry in the right direction, and the history of this country's health points to them being detrimental.

 

[Donk]

I listened to the Rich outdoors podcast last year where he had a nutritionist on there. The guy trains endurance athletes. What I took away from it is this. Your body cannot convert fat to fuel fast enough in a long endurance event. I’m sure someone who is not a nutritionist will want to argue about it.

About three weeks ago I downloaded the Carbmamager app. I have been using it to track my macros. It was shocking how much I was over or under on carbs, protein, and fats from day-to-day and I thought I was being mindful. Since I have tracked what I ate and balanced my macros I have lost several pounds, an inch off my waist, and about 1.6% body fat. I can fuel for a workout and I can plan for life. If my wife is making spaghetti for dinner I just have to track and be conscious throughout the day. It takes work but I feel a lot better. Not an endorsement for the app it’s just the one that has worked for me.

Best of luck. The diet can be a hard one to figure out.

 

[Frito]

I'm not a nutritionist but was an endurance athlete for quite a while. If you research where funds come from that support most nutrition related education, you just might trace it right to someplace like General Mills or Nabisco, companies that lobby to the FDA, meanwhile those agencies are trying to find the medium between misinformation based on botched and incomplete science, and keeping their accounts full as the science is changing in the other direction.

On the flip side, their are other nutritionists and doctors that argue in the opposite direction, that fat is the superior fuel and that endurance can improve while being fat adapted.

Maybe this nutritionist is right. Maybe I've got more research to do and I'll try to figure out where the information that your body can't convert fat to fuel fast enough info came from. Ketones are fuel. If they are in the form of ketones, they have already been converted. If you aren't fat adapted your body won't like that, so if you are a carb monster and in the middle of a race, your body runs low on carbs, your body is definitely not going to like ketones, at all, and you'll definitely suffer. I've seen many people push the anti-keto agenda with this kind of scenario, hoping the listener isn't privy to another biochemistry. But maybe I'm wrong. I just know you can't get any reliable information just by listening to one nutritionist.

In my own experience, I'm not running sub 16 minute 5k's anymore, but I am experimenting with my endurance on a pretty intense level, and am doing exceptionally better while in a state of ketosis. I've also tried to see how I do with some post workout day carbs and trying to convert in the middle of a stretch the next day, but so far it's been pretty willy nilly. Hard to really tell what's happening.

Sorry to be argumentative. Not trying to stir anyone up. I'm learning too, and I guess I'm just really disenchanted with nutritionists and politics of food lately. Like I said, a wall of corruption.

 

[Jc2020]

The question you might have to ask yourself and be really honest is are you cheating on your diet( alcohol, snacks, etc) and am I doing a “dirty” keto? What I mean by this is were you eating high fat foods that were essentially shit. When I first tried keto in January 2019 I did “dirty” keto, lost 20lbs and felt weak and miserable. All I was eating was dairy products, bacon, sausage, pork rinds, steaks which don’t get me wrong I saw the scale move but my workouts suffered. Then I found out that keto can be eaten much healthier eggs, still bacon (),avacadoes, olives, leafy greens, almonds, macadamia nuts, pecans, berries and zucchini to name some of the daily things to eat on “clean” keto. It’s been great for me since I made the switch i am honestly still surprised at my energy levels after doing a fasted hike or a weight training session. Good luck with it.

I had a similar experience my self with Keato until I figured this out.

 

[Frito]

I had a similar experience my self with Keato until I figured this out.

Yes, and when I finally committed to ketosis, I did suffer. I suffered at work, in the gym, on the bike and on the trail for a while. It took a solid 2 months to get to where I left off. That was ketosis, but that's not the condition that all the advocates are talking about. I dabbled with low carb for years, and during that time I realized that when I ran low on carbs/(glucose/glycogen), I fell flat on my face. Carbs to the rescue. It's enough to make you quit and think that it must be unhealthy. I would go through it all again, 10 fold just to get to where I'm at now.

And a clean, whole food, nutrient dense diet is key. Eating bacon alone will put you into ketosis, but ketosis alone is not going to win you any races, for sure.

 

[V2Pnutrition]

Maybe this nutritionist is right. Maybe I've got more research to do and I'll try to figure out where the information that your body can't convert fat to fuel fast enough info came from. Ketones are fuel.....I've seen many people push the anti-keto agenda with this kind of scenario, hoping the listener isn't privy to another biochemistry. But maybe I'm wrong. I just know you can't get any reliable information just by listening to one nutritionist.

Sorry to be argumentative. Not trying to stir anyone up. I'm learning too, and I guess I'm just really disenchanted with nutritionists and politics of food lately. Like I said, a wall of corruption.

@Frito I am that nutritionist and can assure you I receive no “corrupt money” from any of the companies you mention here. I also have no agenda, just an education in science and chemistry. I’d also be more than happy to delve into the specifics of biochemistry, fuel sources, etc. Feel free to message me your number. This wouldn’t be to argue, but to converse.

This is also one side of the coin. There are other things like the expense of oxygen to breakdown fat vs carbs that play a role in overall performance. Jordan Budd and I just recorded a podcast last Friday delving into more of this. You might find it interesting and check it out when it releases.

At the end of the day, if a person feels better doing this approach, then they should go for it. However, to suggest this is THE way would be misleading. Multiple studies still show impaired performance (time, speed, etc.) when athletes on a low carb diet are pitted against athletes on a high carb diet.

I appreciate your thoughtful post here and sharing your experience.

 

[V2Pnutrition]

@Donk I listened to the Rich outdoors podcast last year where he had a nutritionist on there. The guy trains endurance athletes. What I took away from it is this. Your body cannot convert fat to fuel fast enough in a long endurance event. I’m sure someone who is not a nutritionist will want to argue about it.

@Donk That was me

Your understanding here is part of the story, though it goes much deeper than that. I’d also throw in that just because something “works” does not mean it’s optimal. The latter of which I’m most interested in, in helping mountain athletes.

If a person could care less about “optimal” and feels better doing the low carb approach, I’ll ALWAYS encourage them to pursue that. What matters the MOST from a nutrition standpoint for a person meeting their goals is that they like whatever program they follow. If that’s low-carb, high-carb, etc., etc., then a nutritionist/dietitian, etc. should support them (assuming the approach isn’t harmful).

I’m glad to hear you feel like you’ve found something that’s working well for you! Congrats on the success thus far.

 

[Donk]

@Donk That was me

Your understanding here is part of the story, though it goes much deeper than that. I’d also throw in that just because something “works” does not mean it’s optimal. The latter of which I’m most interested in, in helping mountain athletes.

If a person could care less about “optimal” and feels better doing the low carb approach, I’ll ALWAYS encourage them to pursue that. What matters the MOST from a nutrition standpoint for a person meeting their goals is that they like whatever program they follow. If that’s low-carb, high-carb, etc., etc., then a nutritionist/dietitian, etc. should support them (assuming the approach isn’t harmful).

I’m glad to hear you feel like you’ve found something that’s working well for you! Congrats on the success thus far.

Hopefully I didn’t mess up your message. And hopefully I didn’t hijack this thread. There is a lot of information out there and it can be confusing.

 

[Donk]

I'm not a nutritionist but was an endurance athlete for quite a while. If you research where funds come from that support most nutrition related education, you just might trace it right to someplace like General Mills or Nabisco, companies that lobby to the FDA, meanwhile those agencies are trying to find the medium between misinformation based on botched and incomplete science, and keeping their accounts full as the science is changing in the other direction.

On the flip side, their are other nutritionists and doctors that argue in the opposite direction, that fat is the superior fuel and that endurance can improve while being fat adapted.

Maybe this nutritionist is right. Maybe I've got more research to do and I'll try to figure out where the information that your body can't convert fat to fuel fast enough info came from. Ketones are fuel. If they are in the form of ketones, they have already been converted. If you aren't fat adapted your body won't like that, so if you are a carb monster and in the middle of a race, your body runs low on carbs, your body is definitely not going to like ketones, at all, and you'll definitely suffer. I've seen many people push the anti-keto agenda with this kind of scenario, hoping the listener isn't privy to another biochemistry. But maybe I'm wrong. I just know you can't get any reliable information just by listening to one nutritionist.

In my own experience, I'm not running sub 16 minute 5k's anymore, but I am experimenting with my endurance on a pretty intense level, and am doing exceptionally better while in a state of ketosis. I've also tried to see how I do with some post workout day carbs and trying to convert in the middle of a stretch the next day, but so far it's been pretty willy nilly. Hard to really tell what's happening.

Sorry to be argumentative. Not trying to stir anyone up. I'm learning too, and I guess I'm just really disenchanted with nutritionists and politics of food lately. Like I said, a wall of corruption.

I didn’t think you were argumentative at all. You presented a great counter point and it sounds like you have found something that works. The only endurance muscle I have left is my ass cheeks, from sitting at a desk all day. haha.

Hopefully you have found some things that will help the OP.

We are all in this together. Preparing for hunts is what keeps me going in the gym. If I could just say No to the chicken fried rice i would be a lot better off.

 

[V2Pnutrition]

Hopefully I didn’t mess up your message. And hopefully I didn’t hijack this thread. There is a lot of information out there and it can be confusing.

Heavens no, you didn’t at all. The more questions and input there is, the more we all benefit. No sweat!

 

[Frito]

@Frito I am that nutritionist and can assure you I receive no “corrupt money” from any of the companies you mention here. I also have no agenda, just an education in science and chemistry. I’d also be more than happy to delve into the specifics of biochemistry, fuel sources, etc. Feel free to message me your number. This wouldn’t be to argue, but to converse.

This is also one side of the coin. There are other things like the expense of oxygen to breakdown fat vs carbs that play a role in overall performance. Jordan Budd and I just recorded a podcast last Friday delving into more of this. You might find it interesting and check it out when it releases.

At the end of the day, if a person feels better doing this approach, then they should go for it. However, to suggest this is THE way would be misleading. Multiple studies still show impaired performance (time, speed, etc.) when athletes on a low carb diet are pitted against athletes on a high carb diet.

I appreciate your thoughtful post here and sharing your experience.

I'm out of the country right now, so I will probably start with the podcast. I'll do my best to find it. And I never meant to suggest that YOU receive anything "corrupt". And I have found what works for me, as well as my wife, going from doctors who also study, and have credentials, and would put my wife on a mile long list of prescriptions to medicate her lupus and failing thyroid, when cutting carbs miraculously causes her to even test negative for what was a life changing illness for her. The carb cutting was advise from a different doctor, who I'm sure has studied, and has credentials, but didn't have a gut hanging over his belt who talks to us about the importance of the low carb diet. I ended up starting on the keto diet only to support my wife because it wasn't working well with me eating carbs the way I always have, while her diet was severely restricted. Didn't seem fair, so I did it only to make things fair, and in doing that, I've become a new person in so many ways I don't have room on a forum to discuss. So please excuse my EXTREME bias on the subject. I am aware of it, and I am also fully aware that it's not "the only way" and I'll be careful not to suggest that it is. It's worked for me and everyone around me that has done it. I can only speak for myself as far as endurance though. I also believe you know your stuff and you have the best intentions in what you do. You would only bully me in conversation about it because it is your living. I'd be the submissive listener, and I'm already in that role with my doctor and nutritionist. So excuse me if I don't reach out to you personally. I will follow your work the best way I can, and probably learn a lot in the process.

And I know the main focus of this thread is endurance, not overall health, or lupus, or guts that hang over belts. I honestly can't argue to that point. I may be a rare case. Maybe keto is just best for me at 40 when it comes to endurance.

And don't mistake my tone through typing. I'm a nice guy.

 

[Frito]

I didn’t think you were argumentative at all. You presented a great counter point and it sounds like you have found something that works. The only endurance muscle I have left is my ass cheeks, from sitting at a desk all day. haha.

Hopefully you have found some things that will help the OP.

We are all in this together. Preparing for hunts is what keeps me going in the gym. If I could just say No to the chicken fried rice i would be a lot better off.

Thank you for not taking me the wrong way. It wasn't a shot at any particular nutritionist. I just get fired up sometimes when people start throwing credentials around, not because I think they aren't credible, but because different nutritionists and doctors argue the virtues and science of the ketogenic state all the time. I've done a lot of cross referencing both sides, and my own success lines up perfectly with the keto side. And trust me, I'm described as a "foodie". If I'm not eating carbs, it better be working because they are usually delicious. Fried rice is one of my cheats.

Another point I think is important, that has shaped my thinking is when looking at both sides of the keto argument (and I'm not talking about endurance, really) is how the keto side likes to discuss the biochemistry. They talk you through the process, the hormones, and the history of our diet and produce, including the history of diabetes and refined carbs while the other side....it just seems like they like to deal in half truths, not talking about what the keto flu really is, and that you come out on the other side feeling great, and they love to scare you with the similar verbiage of keto acidosis, and I get a dishonest feeling about it. And at the same time, I'm proving the keto side of things to myself. What they tell me is actually happening to me, and I'm having great success, including performance.

Hell, check out "The Game Changer". Experts can be really convincing and speak very matter-of-factly, and people will listen and it all makes such perfect sense.

And this is separate from a performance point of view, and a nutritionists talking about "optimal" performance, and I'm aware of that.

In all honestly, I'm experimenting in optimal performance now but I'm not sure how I'm performing in comparison with optimal performance. I'm never going to run another 15:16 5k, and I don't plan on running anymore marathons, so the optimal performance info will have to come from someone far more knowledgeable than I. I've jumped back into training within my threshold and I only know what's relative to me.

 

[V2Pnutrition]

I also believe you know your stuff and you have the best intentions in what you do. You would only bully me in conversation about it because it is your living. I'd be the submissive listener, and I'm already in that role with my doctor and nutritionist. So excuse me if I don't reach out to you personally.

I apologize if my comments seemed as if I was bullying you. It wasn’t the intent.

I’m happy to talk more If you change your mind and very happy to hear you and your family have found something that works well for you.

 

[Frito]

I apologize if my comments seemed as if I was bullying you. It wasn’t the intent.

I’m happy to talk more If you change your mind and very happy to hear you and your family have found something that works well for you.

Thank you, and I'm truthful when I say I'll look you up and see what you're saying. You're probably right too, and in the end there's probably more that we would agree on than not. Not that I have any leg to stand on other than a bunch of reading and my own experience. I'm a re-work in progress.