BBob
WKR
Lou Murdica deserves much credit too, he's the one that fronted the $$$ to get the March ball rolling.
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Long range rifle scope- march vs razor vs Mk5hd
- Thread starter Ewad3
- Start date
ResearchinStuff
WKR
ah, benchrest applications. very different reputation on LRH and SH.
rayporter
WKR
Billy Stevens Wins
44th Annual Super Shoot
with the soon to be released
Dominator 68 gr Boattail and Valdada Scope!
Commentary by Tack Driver III Winner Bart Sauter
Winning Equipment — I shot a 6PPC with a .273 no-turn neck, Bartlein 1:13.5″-twist barrel, BAT DS action, Jewell trigger, Harris tuner, and Scarborough stock. On top was a great big ole 10-60X Valdada “Precision” scope with 40mm tube. I also used Vihtavuori N133 powder and my 68gr boat-tail bullets.
poi is much more important in BR than in any other game. if a scope moves by .001 every shot at then end of one day that is .01 and after 2 days that is .02 inches.
the nationals were won by .0002 this year. and third place was .0006 back.
ResearchinStuff
WKR
true, but the group can be anywhere on the paper, and ranges are fixed, so tracking doesn't matter much (Tony Boyer even writes at length about adding screws through the tube to "freeze" the scope in Extreme Rifle Accuracy). And recoil is not a significant factor for 6BR and smaller at IBS light weights, and is even less of a factor in heavy gun shooting. there's also less exposure to vibration (no one is driving around between the shots of a string), and the first round POI doesn't matter at all so long as it hits paper, since everyone shoots sighters/foulers and scoring is based on group size alone. So yes, it has to hold zero very, very, very well for 5-10 rounds while the gun is fully supported and does not move at all, and "survive" a negligible recoil impulse. On the next group, the POI can be anywhere on the target, so long as it again holds for 5-10 rounds.
Those are the exact opposite conditions of those experienced while backcountry hunting, which is the main point of this forum.
BBob
WKR
^^^Freezing scopes mostly went out the window after the March was produced. Other scopes in BR have come along like the Valdada that hold so you just don't see the frozen or modified scopes much if at all anymore. Not all BR is shot for group. Holding point of impact is important in 1K BR as it is shot for score and group at the same time. Holding point of impact is important in Short Range BR for score matches as well. Not all SR BR matches are group. Yes they "only" have to hold for a limited number of shots but you'll likely not win if you have a scope that won't hold zero.
ResearchinStuff
WKR
the super shoot, mentioned above, is shot at 100 and 200 yards, and is for aggregate group size only. there are no scores outside of group size reflected on the standings sheet. It does however have lower weight limits than IBS, but I'm skeptical that a 10.5# 6PPC is a real thumper.
bulletin.accurateshooter.com
Edited for factual correction about the nature of BBob's link.
Super Shoot 2022 — Last One Ever at Kelbly’s Range in Ohio « Daily Bulletin
Edited for factual correction about the nature of BBob's link.
BBob
WKR
I didn't link the super shoot directly. BR for Score is a different animal and one I tried to point out.
I am not disputing you that because it's good for BR it may not be good for a hunting application. A scope that has a good BR reputation for holding point of impact would lead me to at least take a look at it before I dismissed it. If it won't hold zero on a BR gun it most likely isn't any good for anything else.
I am not disputing you that because it's good for BR it may not be good for a hunting application. A scope that has a good BR reputation for holding point of impact would lead me to at least take a look at it before I dismissed it. If it won't hold zero on a BR gun it most likely isn't any good for anything else.
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rayporter
WKR
you may choose what you wish. i simply show what others are discovering.
i have a frozen scope for reference on the scope checker.
i have a frozen scope for reference on the scope checker.
BBob
WKR
Almost the same. I have a known good scope (Nightforce) that has never wandered and two scope checkers. One for Davidson rails and one for Picatinny. One of them has pinned top rails that can change between Davidson or Picatinny or mix and match both so it doesn't matter what rings are on the scope.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2014
- Messages
- 12,741
There is as close to zero correlation between a suitable BR scope and a suitable field scope.
A field shooter could almost not care at all if their field scope erector moves .1 MOA every shot as long as it moves in a circle and the zero doesn’t change- BR shooters lose their mind over that.
A BR shooter could care less about absolute zero retention from impacts, drops, vibration, recoil effects on zero, etc as long as shots land next to each other, even in BR for score as sighters are still allowed- field shooters should be losing their minds over that.
Bullseye pistols have almost nothing in common with a duty or field pistol. Same for rifles.
BBob
WKR
No correlation at all? How many exact same model Nightforce have been tested and pronounced good for field use show up on BR rigs? Nightforce typically averages 50% of scopes used on many equipment lists. Why were they chosen??? Couldn't be for any of the same reasons they are good for field use at all 
Sighter's are typically for for checking conditions during a match, not for checking or correcting zero. If a scope won't hold zero from one shot to the next what good is a sighter? Use a scope in BR that won't hold zero and you're asking to lose. Hard core match winners do not tolerate scopes that don't hold zero period so they absolutely do care. Winners and losers are separated by tenths of an inch or a single X these days. If a scope wanders zero much at all will you win in those conditions? Hell no. Zero retention is preached on this site but BR shooters don't care or need to worry about it because they have sighter's to fix it? Not even.
Sighter's are typically for for checking conditions during a match, not for checking or correcting zero. If a scope won't hold zero from one shot to the next what good is a sighter? Use a scope in BR that won't hold zero and you're asking to lose. Hard core match winners do not tolerate scopes that don't hold zero period so they absolutely do care. Winners and losers are separated by tenths of an inch or a single X these days. If a scope wanders zero much at all will you win in those conditions? Hell no. Zero retention is preached on this site but BR shooters don't care or need to worry about it because they have sighter's to fix it? Not even.
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- Joined
- Oct 22, 2014
- Messages
- 12,741
No correlation at all? How many exact same model Nightforce have been tested and pronounced good for field use show up on BR rigs? Nightforce typically averages 50% of scopes used on many equipment lists. Why were they chosen??? Couldn't be for any of the same reasons they are good for field use at all
Sighter's are typically for for checking conditions during a match, not for checking or correcting zero. If a scope won't hold zero from one shot to the next what good is a sighter? Use a scope in BR that won't hold zero and you're asking to lose. Hard core match winners do not tolerate scopes that don't hold zero period so they absolutely do care. Winners and losers are separated by tenths of an inch or a single X these days. If a scope wanders zero much at all will you win in those conditions? Hell no. Zero retention is preached on this site but BR shooters don't care or need to worry about it because they have sighter's to fix it? Not even.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Nightforce BR scope are not NF tactical or hunting scopes. No one in BR is using an NXS, and no one in field shooting is using a NF BR scope. Unequivocally NF BR scopes do not take impacts or field use anywhere near what their field scopes do- not in the least.
I just learned something… benchrest ahooters don’t have to hit the bullseye to score? Huh. Wow. So it’s all just group size, anywhere on paper? That seems incredibly weird to me! Group size is important, but isn’t also hitting the target equally important? Now I’m wondering what else I don’t know about all these various shooting games. I’ve seen a lot of them talked about here and I’m now realizing I have no idea what they mean. I guess all rifle shooting competitions aren’t the same.
I’m a hunter through and through, I shoot only to be a better hunter. I’ve never gone to any kind of formalized shooting competition or gathering. I doubt I ever will. But I would like to know what all these different titles and types of shooters mean. I always thought all shooters had the same objective. Hit bullseyes. Obviously, I’m wrong. In layman’s terms, could someone please differentiate:
F Class
PRS
NRL
(And any others I might be unaware of)
I’m a hunter through and through, I shoot only to be a better hunter. I’ve never gone to any kind of formalized shooting competition or gathering. I doubt I ever will. But I would like to know what all these different titles and types of shooters mean. I always thought all shooters had the same objective. Hit bullseyes. Obviously, I’m wrong. In layman’s terms, could someone please differentiate:
F Class
PRS
NRL
(And any others I might be unaware of)
DakotaBPNW
WKR
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2019
- Messages
- 1,185
LRHS really doesn’t get enough love. I’ve got 3 of them and just sold my NXS to buy another.
I am a new guy here. Ryan asked me to comment because I shoot long range benchrest competition. I shot with the guys in Tucson from 2005-2007, took a break, shot with the Oregon boys from 2018 - 2020, and since 2021 I have been shooting 1000 yd BR at Deep Creek in Montana--arguably the range that most tests your tuning skills.
Both NBRSA and IBS compete for both group and score. They are weighted equally, though I think most of us--at least me--are a little more impressed with small groups than high scores. IIRC, our 1000 yd 10-ring is 7" and the X-Ring is 3". Generally, Heavy Guns shoot 10-shot groups and Light Guns shoot 5-shot groups at 1000 yds. A 7" group could yield a perfect score, while a 7" 10-shot group isn't considered that great. An IBS "screamer" group is 2.5" or less for Light Guns and 5" for less for Heavy. My personal best 5-shot group is 2.36", and my 10-shot best is a 3.855" 100-3X. The all-time best groups are something like 1.15" for 5-shots and 2.6xx" for 10.
We get either a three or a six minute sighter period to try and figure out the wind. The targets are pulled and spotted for each sighter. At the end of the sighter period, record targets go up and record targets are all shot in the blind. While we have 10 minutes to shoot our record target, most of us try to find the best condition we saw during the sighter period and fire our groups as fast as we can. The rifles are single shot with dual port or drop port actions. We can usually get 5 shots off in say 20 seconds and 10 in 35--depending on how well we have the gun tracking.
As to scopes. I personally have two Nightforce BR 12-42 scopes and one Vortex Golden Eagle 15-60. I like the NFs better because they are more clear. They typically hold their zero exceptionally well and the NF is a sturdy scope--not sure how sturdy the Golden Eagle is. Both scopes are common on the line. Occasionally I see a Leupold or a March, and sometimes the NF Competition model. The NF Comp is a great scope if you get one that holds its zero.
As to using any of these scopes for long range hunting? For me that is a hard pass. The NF BR models have front focus objectives. While that makes them very clear, they are not fast to adjust. The 12 power minimum is a little too high for as well. Also, they are a very heavy scope. They are also second focal plane, which is almost a must in LRBR.
The Golden Eagle does have a side focus objective and a lighter weight, but the 15 power minimum makes it a non-starter for me. It also gets very dark above 40 power. It too is SFP.
BTW, the AS Daily Bulletin article on LRBR is a bit out of date. Don't repeat that, or the ForumBoss over there will make me update it.........
Both NBRSA and IBS compete for both group and score. They are weighted equally, though I think most of us--at least me--are a little more impressed with small groups than high scores. IIRC, our 1000 yd 10-ring is 7" and the X-Ring is 3". Generally, Heavy Guns shoot 10-shot groups and Light Guns shoot 5-shot groups at 1000 yds. A 7" group could yield a perfect score, while a 7" 10-shot group isn't considered that great. An IBS "screamer" group is 2.5" or less for Light Guns and 5" for less for Heavy. My personal best 5-shot group is 2.36", and my 10-shot best is a 3.855" 100-3X. The all-time best groups are something like 1.15" for 5-shots and 2.6xx" for 10.
We get either a three or a six minute sighter period to try and figure out the wind. The targets are pulled and spotted for each sighter. At the end of the sighter period, record targets go up and record targets are all shot in the blind. While we have 10 minutes to shoot our record target, most of us try to find the best condition we saw during the sighter period and fire our groups as fast as we can. The rifles are single shot with dual port or drop port actions. We can usually get 5 shots off in say 20 seconds and 10 in 35--depending on how well we have the gun tracking.
As to scopes. I personally have two Nightforce BR 12-42 scopes and one Vortex Golden Eagle 15-60. I like the NFs better because they are more clear. They typically hold their zero exceptionally well and the NF is a sturdy scope--not sure how sturdy the Golden Eagle is. Both scopes are common on the line. Occasionally I see a Leupold or a March, and sometimes the NF Competition model. The NF Comp is a great scope if you get one that holds its zero.
As to using any of these scopes for long range hunting? For me that is a hard pass. The NF BR models have front focus objectives. While that makes them very clear, they are not fast to adjust. The 12 power minimum is a little too high for as well. Also, they are a very heavy scope. They are also second focal plane, which is almost a must in LRBR.
The Golden Eagle does have a side focus objective and a lighter weight, but the 15 power minimum makes it a non-starter for me. It also gets very dark above 40 power. It too is SFP.
BTW, the AS Daily Bulletin article on LRBR is a bit out of date. Don't repeat that, or the ForumBoss over there will make me update it.........
Drinking from a fire hose! I was hoping for the cliff notes version. But Thanks.No. They shoot for group and shoot for score.
The Disciplines
internationalbenchrest.com
F Class Basics Part 1: Introduction and Equipment
An introduction to F Class rifle competitionbisonballistics.com
Precision Rifle Series | About the Precision Rifle Series
The Precision Rifle Series is the preeminent rifle organization in the world, structuring a yearly points race for both the PRS Pro Bolt Gun Series and the PRS Regional Series. The PRS Championship Shooting Series is synonymous with precision rifle shooting.www.precisionrifleseries.com
Rules - NRL Hunter
nrlhunter.org
COMPETITION DYNAMICS
Competition Dynamics runs world-class, cutting-edge competitive practical shooting events with an unmatched level of professionalism and operational excellence. Our staff has a proven track record of running challenging, safe, and fair 3-Gun, multi-gun, and long-range matches.competition-dynamics.com
Making an Impact
WYCO PRL is a precision rifle league local to the Front Range area. The league includes four independent monthly one-day matches in Laramie Wyoming, Cheyenne Wyoming, N.O.C.O. at Pawnee, and Colorado Springs.wycoprl.com
Guardian Long Range
guardianlongrange.com
And about a billion others.
That was the cliff notes. I didn't get into our gun handling, attempts at reading the wind, or our insane level of load tuning.........
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