Listen to guides when loading for big game

[Steve300xcw]

So to recap 6 pages; OP stated he learned a lot from being around a bunch of guides, but has declined to share what he learned. Only that we should call a guide and figure it out ourselves. Is that about where we landed here?

Yea thats 'bout it....OH...Dont forget the shale armor!

 

[207North]

Yea that 'bout it....OH...Dont forget the shale armor!

The shale armor is real. It just might have been located on the ground 10 yards in front of the goat.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Also mtn dew makes grumpy easterners happy again. And oregon is in the midwest and we drink steak with our whine...or something like that.

 

[SDHNTR]

This is one of the dumber debates I’ve ever seen on this forum. And there have been some extremely dumb ones!

 

[fwafwow]

So to recap 6 pages; OP stated he learned a lot from being around a bunch of guides, but has declined to share what he learned. Only that we should call a guide and figure it out ourselves. Is that about where we landed here?

That and several guides who have chimed in, including one that (to me) sounds like clients are so varied, and often inept, that his advice sounds like based on the lowest common denominator

 

[BLJ]

Also mtn dew makes grumpy easterners happy again. And oregon is in the midwest and we drink steak with our whine...or something like that.

Yes. Prezactly.

 

[cwitt]

That and several guides who have chimed in, including one that (to me) sounds like clients are so varied, and often inept, that his advice sounds like based on the lowest common denominator

I lost interest in a lot of this thread but I think you’re referring to my comment? Which if so, it is absolutely true. I, and a lot of the guys I work with, tend to defer to a recommendation that leaves in our opinion the least margin for error. That’s why you’ll hear guides and outfitters push for a .30cal no matter what. But that’s *typically* when the client has little to no knowledge base. I don’t know many of us who would push a client away from shooting a rifle they’re super comfortable with regardless of bullet choice. There just frankly aren’t a ton of clients that have a rifle they’re super comfortable with..

That’s why my approach for someone who isn’t sure what to shoot is to tell them to just practice as much as possible with whatever they have and if it’s a less capable system then they can use my rifle.

FWIW, that combo for me for a few years has been a 7prc and factory 175 eld x. But I have a guy I hunt with a lot that has been shooting a 6.8 western and winchester 162gr copper impacts. This year I’ve watched that rifle kill an antelope, dall sheep, caribou, yukon moose, and two mule deer at a whole spectrum of yardages. It’s been so impressive that it’s really making me want one of my own.

 

[Marbles]

Oh…never shot one? How about your BC sheep hunts? Zero there as well. So you are one of those internet experts the OP said his guides talked about. By the way did you have to go to class to create that childish goat cartoon you posted?

Goats die fast with a double lung shot from a 243 with ELDMs in my experience. They are not bulletproof.

Chris,

It is not about you. It is about trying to help hunters who are looking for information, and giving them another tool in the tool box to use when trying to prepare for a hunt. I have been blessed by God many times over. I go on more big game hunts in a year than most will go on in a lifetime. However, that was not always the case and when I went on my first approximately 30 years ago I wanted to do everything I could to make sure I was prepared including shooting the right bullet. So all I wanted to do was let someone who is not as knowledgeable as you know they might gather some good information from guides regarding bullet selection. I agree some guides are not a wealth of information on bullet selection, but I have to say the ones I have used over the last 10 years or so have been very knowledgeable.

As for the video, I watched the shot on video. I do not have the video. It was taken by another guide, not my guide. With all due respect, considering how this thread has went I am not going to make any effort to find out who the guide was and then ask him to send me the video so I can upload it and let everyone Monday morning quarterback critique the guys shot, etc. The hunter was very upset he lost that goat.

Since you have never killed a goat, I am assuming you have never walked up to a dead one in late season. I am attaching a photo of one of the goats we watched last week. Those big billies are covered in shale, dirt and ice that time of year. I am not an engineer. All I know is that they guy hit the goat at 600 yards and he did not kill the goat that day. They said the goat walked away. They looked for the goat. Where it went I do not know. If you go on a goat hunt, and I hope you do get the chance if that is something you would like to do one day, use whatever bullet you want to use. I shot mine with a 180 grain Berger VLD and it worked perfectly. So best to you and yours.

Dirt does not equal shale and ice. Billy goats are known to have dirty rumps. Other than discoloration, from goats I have handled, it is just hair. They certainly don't have shale matted into fur over the vitals, they don't even have that in the dirty patches on their rumps.

Perhaps the ELDM failed and penciled through, perhaps the person missed and splatter from a near sid impact was all that was seen hitting the goat. Perhaps the goat died and the guide just did a poor job attempting recovery. A bullet proof goat is the least plausible explanation.

147 gr ELDMs can go through steel, plywood, or auto glass and maintain more than 12 inches of penetration, nothing a goat has in its fur is preventing a bullet from getting to the lungs, even if they actually did have rock and ice matted in.

Auto windshield glass is incredibly tough, the FBI test places it so there is a compound angle, then an 18 inch stand off.

The guides theory is based on speculation and doesn't hold up to a basic analysis.

 

[fwafwow]

I lost interest in a lot of this thread but I think you’re referring to my comment?

I wish I had lost interest in this thread! Yes, it was your comment I was referencing.

Which if so, it is absolutely true. I, and a lot of the guys I work with, tend to defer to a recommendation that leaves in our opinion the least margin for error. That’s why you’ll hear guides and outfitters push for a .30cal no matter what. But that’s *typically* when the client has little to no knowledge base. I don’t know many of us who would push a client away from shooting a rifle they’re super comfortable with regardless of bullet choice. There just frankly aren’t a ton of clients that have a rifle they’re super comfortable with..

Your post definitely included more nuance than the OP's recommendation/theory. I don't mean to take a shot at your post, but while the "margin for error" is completely understandable, I think it undercuts the OP's original post. The "margin of error" concept has been debated ad nauseum (and then some) - meaning that 0.30" vs 0.277" doesn't make as much difference as the bullet selection (holding all else equal), and if you suck at a larger cartridge, the extra width and "wallop" isn't likely to make up for poor shot placement. And extra cartridge width can just as easily lead to other problems - like causing that poor shot placement, whether due to flinching, getting a rifle they aren't used to (like you experienced), etc.

That’s why my approach for someone who isn’t sure what to shoot is to tell them to just practice as much as possible with whatever they have and if it’s a less capable system then they can use my rifle.

Always great advice for any hunter.

The guides theory is based on speculation and doesn't hold up to a basic analysis.

Agreed. At a minimum it's too simplistic and without nuance. Maybe "listen to your guide after you have a detailed discussion and bring a rifle that you can shoot" etc.