Liberation Day

[KurtR]

You've been given some examples but here are some others below. You've also got a world of information at your fingertips if you care to investigate a little bit. "All the time" is too strong but they do happen regularly from an historical perspective. I'm no expert but below are some examples I found easily.

Here https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/...pill-incidents/past-spill-incidents/mt-polley

https://www.sierraclub.org/wisconsin/blog/2017/08/every-mine-has-polluted-water this source is biased but points out a few as well as some of the questions surround the type of mining.

Study finds mining-related pollution 350 miles downstream of Canadian coal mines

Regulators in the U.S. say the study shows that dangerous levels of selenium are entering the waterways of Montana and Idaho.

montanafreepress.org

U.S. mining sites dump 50 million gallons of fouled wastewater daily

That torrent is poisoning aquatic life and tainting drinking water sources in Montana, California, Colorado, Oklahoma and at least five other states.

www.pbs.org

We can pretend that mining (sulfide mining especially) is clean, but that does not make it so. The processes involved create a lot of waste. Even if we assume that it can be done with minimal impact, there is no guarantee that there won't be spillages of the waste down the line that we all end up paying for in environmental impacts, clean up cost, and in some cases health.

I think there is a high risk of negative consequences. I do not think it's worth the risk for the relatively small number of jobs it creates, especially when the capital is owned by foreign entities.

Those are the 2 that i had already found. I do have experience with surface mining gravel and the amount of regulation involved in that now I can imagine what mines that use the chemicals have to follow but accidents do happen. I would much rather a mining company from the US was in charge. How many jobs does a mine the size they are proposing create i dont know. Are there other mines in area that do the same thing. Whats a solution to the need of raw materials?

 

[KurtR]

How is it a far cry different? What is safer about what they're doing now from a waste management/environmental impact perspective?

the monitoring just in its self. How many mine sites have you visited to see the controls in place in say a mine that operated in the 70's vs one now?

 

[Pony Soldier]

The cleanup by the epa has been ridicules. Arsenic levels in the river coming out of yellowstone in the 90s was 728 ppm while the epa limit for industry 5 ppb. Mercury levels for the epa are so low we don't even have equipment to test for it (ppt). They have to concentrate it to test it and then project the results.

When I started in the industry our levels were measured by per cent. Many areas naturally occur in percent. However the interest of the government is limited by whether companies have enough money. If not then those levels are fine.

Superfund should be called the lawyer funding act. I think we have focused more on lawsuits than solutions. We have the technology and the producing companies many times are ours ; just in somebody elses country.

We forced our smelters to Japan, Korea and China so we can pay tariffs on our own copper and other metals because we can't process any in our country. We need practical solutions and less government.

 

[Ten Bears]

It’s crazy to me that some folks think the US economy was doing great two months ago because your stocks were propped up by BS.

Completely cooked books and numbers.

Years of fake, ignored, and revised inflation numbers. Heck they wouldn’t even admit that inflation was taking place.

The employment numbers are so fake and revised every month (look at the number of actual American citizens getting employed) or look at the number of jobs that are really folks getting a second job. It’s terrifying.

The parabolic debt that is crashing down. Coupled with the non stop printing of money.

The 99% devaluation of the US dollar since the inception of the fed. Which has zero electable governing.

The beyond uneven trade agreements with every single country using the US economy and siphoning off it for decades.

I don’t know if tariffs will work. I assume this is hard line approach to renegotiate trade imbalances with the rest of the world that’s sucking the blood out of our corpse. I do know it’s pretty much the only constitutional option left in our tool kit. Clearly no one wants to cut federal spending as seen by the tantrum being thrown. It’s telling that ones screaming the loudest about what is going on have been subsidized with our own tax dollars.

My guess is that nearly every country comes to the table and gives us some of our pie back. In the meantime, some things might cost more if this drags on. I am fine with that if things actually change.

If we go down, they all go down with us. The whole televised game show crap in regards to policy is so unnecessary that it clouds the overall mission, which is some tough decisions are gonna have to be made to get out of the mess they created.

 

[Jimbuck]

The cleanup by the epa has been ridicules. Arsenic levels in the river coming out of yellowstone in the 90s was 728 ppm while the epa limit for industry 5 ppb. Mercury levels for the epa are so low we don't even have equipment to test for it (ppt). They have to concentrate it to test it and then project the results.

When I started in the industry our levels were measured by per cent. Many areas naturally occur in percent. However the interest of the government is limited by whether companies have enough money. If not then those levels are fine.

Superfund should be called the lawyer funding act. I think we have focused more on lawsuits than solutions. We have the technology and the producing companies many times are ours ; just in somebody elses country.

We forced our smelters to Japan, Korea and China so we can pay tariffs on our own copper and other metals because we can't process any in our country. We need practical solutions and less government.

God forbid we try and hold the big corporations accountable for polluting our countries resources.

 

[FuddRucker]

Those are the 2 that i had already found. I do have experience with surface mining gravel and the amount of regulation involved in that now I can imagine what mines that use the chemicals have to follow but accidents do happen. I would much rather a mining company from the US was in charge. How many jobs does a mine the size they are proposing create i dont know. Are there other mines in area that do the same thing. Whats a solution to the need of raw materials?

I don't have a great answer to that. I understand that lots of industries need raw materials like nickel and copper. I will say I am not opposed to trade being an important part of accessing those raw materials, if it means we can maintain the integrity of valuable lands and wildlife.

The main point I am trying to make is there can be long term environmental costs that outweigh the short term economic benefits. So with resource extraction there's always a trade-off. In some cases/places it is worth it and in others it is not in the long run. I don't know how a cost benefit analysis would turn out because I'm not sure what the nickel/copper will be used for but it's very possible that it is not really worth the risk. I just place a really high value on the land and think the benefit ought to be clear given the risk, especially when the land is at stake.

I agree it would be great if it was U.S. led. I think it's unfortunate that we (the u.s.) are up for sale in several sectors. Real estate being another one. Not a popular view, but I think the way we lease rights to minerals/oil on public ground to private companies is a bit wonky in the first place.

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion. It's given me a reason to learn more about mining/mineral use.

 

[MuleyFever]

Well the market is reacting.

I just checked a couple of stocks and they were down 10-14% in after hours.

 

[NDGuy]

Well the market is reacting.

My puts should pay nicely..

 

[FuddRucker]

the monitoring just in its self. How many mine sites have you visited to see the controls in place in say a mine that operated in the 70's vs one now?

None, that's why I was asking you!

Anyway, like in the post above. I value our public lands and think there should be a high bar when it comes to putting them at risk of being polluted by extractive industry. Maybe there are good arguments that the value of nickel and copper is greater than that land in the short and long term. Maybe the risk is worth it and that mining can be done with minimal impact. I don't really know. I do know that currently the benefits of such an operation are likely to be concentrated but the environmental costs would be distributed to us all (and it would be a real loss the BWCA is great by all accounts and I hope to go with my son some day).

Cheers

 

[Conrad101st]

1. I guess my thinking is I believe in a symbiotic global economy. Countries produce what they produce. Our nation has moved on from solely agrarian production to industry to information and services. I think it will be VERY difficult to make America an island nation that produces everything it needs. The simple truth is that the days of making a high standard of living as a line worker are increasingly becoming more difficult. You either need college related skills (Accounting, finance, engineering, law, military, computer programming) or you need to be an entrepreneur & own your own gig. Obviously there are exceptions but as a trend I think it’s more correct than not.

2. I need my retirement in 5 years, not 40. So yes I’m not inclined to be of the mindset to suck it up for a plan that seems to have a payoff 40 years out with an uncertain level of success. Call me selfish.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Okay, how about "surely"? Water resources are scarce. Mining creates all types of waste that folks do not want finding its way into waterways.

Maybe mining can be done in an environmentally responsible way with proper regulations, but things happen all the time despite regulations. Of course, any regulations that cut into the bottom line to protect to the ecosystem will also be seen as "hamstringing" progress. In any case, I just do not trust a foreign company to care enough about our land to self-regulate in a way that will not impact the local ecosystem. Sorry

It's ultimately a value judgement, and many don't think the trade-off is worth it when the land/water/wildlife is at stake, especially given we're talking about a "wilderness" which is also a limited resource.

I think you've watched too many anti-drilling and anti-mining movies. Not everyone is out to exploit and destroy the land.

I agree its a give and take, and in this case our national security and freedom are the top priorities as is preserving wilderness areas.

 

[NDGuy]

View attachment 862085

What does Grandmaster Bullshito have to do with anything

 

[Conrad101st]

Good discussion by the way. Round robin on points of view without personal attacks. It’s hard to know how any course of action will turn out. Either way, I intend to hunt elk next year!

 

[jimh406]

Just fyi, both the Democrats and Republicans make sure the stock market will do ok. Don't believe me? Go look at the history of the market. Sure, there will be ups and downs.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

God forbid we try and hold the big corporations accountable for polluting our countries resources.

If you're so hard pressed on this, maybe you should come to Iowa and start lobbying against the pork, beef, corn, and soybean growers. They've been polluting our rivers, lakes, streams, and ground water for decades with manure spills, nutrient runnoff, erosion, and chemical/fertilize plant discharge. They've also essentially been given a free pass by both Republicans and Democrats since they're "feeding the world" (albeit as our cancer rates soar). Des Moines Water Works has the most expensive water treatment plant in the world. Why is that? Just to reduce nutrient, bacteria, and chemical levels to "acceptable" levels for Central Iowans to drink it.

I'd expect you to give up pork chops, bacon, hamburger, and anything with corn or soybeans as an ingredient, including ethanol, if you feel so strongly about big corporations being held responsible for polluting our resources.

National Security and freedom depend on sourcing these minerals, and we need to put the people of this nation first in this regard. As you can tell, I don't support polluting the land, but I'm willing to give domestic miners a shot at this before writing it off as an inevitable natural disaster.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

My first home I put in a new AC/Furnace when my AC died. It was $4200 in 2019. My home I purchased in 2021 the exact same units cost $10,800 from the same installer.

Ask the installer why the price went up. It wasn't because of the proposed tarriffs. Everything got more expensive when the previous administration declared war on energy. Biden essentially cancelled the Keystone pipeline his first day in office. The entire supply chain runs on energy, and when the price for your fundamental input for production and transportation of all goods increases dramatically, everything goes up.

 

[Poser]

Initial read on the tariffs:

Stainless steel is about to get crazy expensive.
Iron, chromium and nickel are the primary ingredients and those are sourced from Indonesia and South Africa.

There was talk of 20% flat tariffs. This is going to be way worse. Can't wait to see the stock market "liberated" tomorrow morning.

 

[TaperPin]

I think it’s funny so many people still believe the party line that this is a good idea. It’s such a bad idea the presentation was scheduled after markets closed. It’s such a bad idea it had to be lied about during the election or he would have never been elected. When you have to lie and blow smoke up people’s butt about prices going up and not down it’s not a good idea. When you increases taxes and lie about them going down it’s a bad idea.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

What does Grandmaster Bullshito have to do with anything

Come on man, he was the villain turned hero in "On Deadly Ground". Look it up and watch it for tips on Bullshido. LOL!

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I think it’s funny so many people still believe the party line that this is a good idea. It’s such a bad idea the presentation was scheduled after markets closed. It’s such a bad idea it had to be lied about during the election or he would have never been elected. When you have to lie and blow smoke up people’s butt about prices going up and not down it’s not a good idea. When you increases taxes and lie about them going down it’s a bad idea.

Egg prices are down in Iowa over 50% since February. Just saying...