Let's discuss fleece

[4ester]

Used fleece in the past, and notice there is a resurgence of it being used again. One thing I hated about my old fleece was that it smelled terrible after it got wet.

Do the new fleece layer suffer from this? Halstead specifically.


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[Formidilosus]

I generally am not a fan of military issued gear. By the time it reaches circulation its 7-10 years behind the civilian market. The PCU system is updated more often however. I've got tons of Patagonia, Mountain Hardware, Arteryx, TNF, FL, Kuiu, etc. gear- that said, the Level II fleece "waffle top" is one of the best pieces of clothing out there. It doesn't matter what time of year or what environment I/we're in- everyone I know always has a waffle top with them (I'm wearing one right now). Of course the Lvl II is/was a Patagonia R1.


Other than the waffle top, I don't use that much fleece. I'm either moving or stationary (of course). If I'm moving I don't want a bunch of layers on and even down into the teens I'm good with just a silk weight base later and waffle top. If it's really cold or windy I just add a wind shirt. When I stop I don't want to fiddle with 17 different layers of fleece and wool. A puffy jacket and pants that zips over everything is the easiest and warmest option. It works from 50* all the way to below zero. As soon as I stop I can pull two pieces out of the bag, put them on over everything else and be toasty. If I need to move quickly it's a lot easier and quicker to pull off the "puff suit" than to strip 6 layers off, figure out which ones will work without over heating, etc.

 

[LBFowler]

I added a hood to my PCU level 2 (now its an "R1 hoody") and it is my go too cold weather base layer. Grid fleece really works best when next to skin, otherwise a normal (classic) fleece is actually a little warmer for the weight.

If you want the warmest fleece for the weight polartec highloft is the way to go (MH monkey man, PCU level 3). It has practically zero wind resistance, which I think is a good thing. Pair it with a wind shirt and you can adjust for a wide range of temperatures.

If you want a little wind resistance something like Polartec Windpro or a hardface fleece is good, but will be heavier for the same weight. Polartec windbloc has even more wind resistance, but it is heavier and less breathable due to the internal membrane. spreading the weight between a separate fleece and wind layer is far more versatile and probably warmer in the end.

 

[280twoeighty]

I ordered a Halstead in pine on a killer deal. Have not received it yet. But think it will be a great layer piece. Am thinking of a R1 in addition for additional warmth for very cold conditions. How is the fit on the R1? Thoughts on pull over vs full zip?

 

[mtwarden]

R1 is "athletic" fit; the pullover has a deep enough zip that it's just fine w/o a full zip

 

[castandblast]

Hi guys, I am thinking about picking up another fleece. It got me thinking about weight or thickness. Pretty much all the 'northface' style fleeces I have seem to be made out of material that is basically the same thing and the same thickness. I dont know if this is called synthetic fleece, or microfleece or what. But its definitely not what you find lining the jean jackets in cigarette commercials.

So, is it all the same? What do I need to know before I shop for fleeces?

I've used fleece garments of many different brands for over 25 years. Brands include Columbia Sportswear, Browning, Under Armor, Sitka, Kuiu, First Ascent, Mountain Hardwear, The North Face, Cabelas, Sporthill, Arcteryx, and Patagonia.

To help simplify your choice I would steer you toward Polartec labeled garments if you are looking for reliable quality at a reasonable price. If you want to go premium jump straight to the Patagonia hooded grid fleeces (R1 and Cap4). The fabric gives you all you want out of fleece with moisture wicking and fast drying qualities, along with excellent fit, stretch, and odor control. They add extra deep zips, hoods that fit and become balaclavas, long sleeves with thumb holes, and a chest pocket big enough to be useful. I live in them all year long and I can't wear them out. You pay a lot up front but if you watch for sales it eases the pain a bit....

Whatever you buy, either air dry it on dry it on low temperature or it will pill up!

 

[JimCraig]

Lots of useful info above. In my opinion fleece is way underrated. Great warmth to weight, excellent breathability in unlined form, and it dries very fast due to its hydrophobic properties. As others have stated there are many varieties of weight and thickness, and they have different applications based on where you want it in your layering system. It definitely pays to look into the more traditional mountaineering and backpacking brands. For the most part though, across many of the brands you will find the same technology just marketed under different catch words. I also recommend Polartec marked fleece as it is a well known quantity that most brands use or others copy. Good military stuff can be found, and one of the good things about that stuff is it is proven to function. Might not necessarily fit well, but the technology and function is good. What's interesting is that the Polartec grid fleece stuff that has become popular recently has been around quite a while. I was issued that stuff in the early 2000's and it was very uncommon in the civilian world at that time. As per the Kuiu Peloton 240, I have the zip up hoodie and it is bonded fleece on the inside and a smooth face grid on the outside. It's actually kind of a puzzling configuration. Nothing wrong with having a fleece interior but I'm not sure what the grid on the outside accomplishes, because it definitely will not function the same as an interior grid fleece. A little gimicky to me.

 

[Kevin Dill]

Some random stuff: thoughts, facts and maybe opinions....

'Fleece' used to refer to a fabric type which was rather soft, fuzzy and textured on both sides. It wasn't faced, bonded, or combined with other fabrics originally. Then began the various generations of fleece combined with Gore linings, windblocks, outer facings etc. Using the term 'fleece' these days can mean any one of several dozen different fabric weights, thicknesses, warmth ratings, wind resistance levels, etc.

The Patagonia R1 fleece fabric is actually a Polartec product. Their website states this. Polartec is the uncontested leader in the development and manufacturing of various fleece or fleeced fabrics. They also make some non-fleece products which can out-perform fleece in many situations. Power Stretch is a phenomenal fabric with superior warmth, light physical weight, incredible stretch and very good layering properties. I own a good bit of it and it has largely replaced any regular fleece I used to own.

I have several of the Peloton pieces from KUIU. The 240 has a fairly slick outer face with a grid pattern, while the inside is a bonded microfleece. I don't think of it as extremely warm, but it is extremely versatile. The faced fabric makes for easier layering over it, as true fleece tends to have a LOT of friction between layers. The 240 P can be worn as a mid-layer or as an outer light jacket in moderate temps. If I really need warmth, the P may not make the cut...true 100% fleece or Power Stretch or thicker midlayers will get the nod.

Worn as a top layer the faced fleeces probably are more durable and wind-resistant than 'straight' fleece. As outerwear the faced fleeces like Peloton or R1 work great until the weather gets a bit rough, and then the true softshells kick in for me. It might weigh some extra ounces, but my KUIU Guide Jacket is one of the best fitting and hardest working hunting jackets I've ever worn. I agree it can be left behind when weight really matters. Mine goes along anytime I don't expect to actually carry it in my backpack frequently or far.

I've got some of the more exotic fleece made strictly for hunters. Sitka Fanatic incorporates a layer of Windstopper under Berber fleece. If you need warmth, total windproofness and something approaching 90% silence...the Fanatic line of fleece is waiting. The Sitka Stratus (fleece) line is another great choice if you want mid-weight fleece and an interior micro-grid fleece backer. It also incorporates Gore Windstopper and is a very good fleece for windy days.

One of the finest fleece lines I've ever worn is the Predator Stealth Fleece. It is 380g heavyweight fleece with a microfleece wind barrier sandwiched in. I own it and will assure you it is the quietest and softest fleece...combined with excellent warmth...I have ever owned period. More guys need to try that line, as it is affordable and really performs.

Final disclaimer: Some of what I mentioned doesn't apply to backpacking and western mountain hunting. Some of it is more dedicated to midwest or eastern hunting settings...or for northern and western basecamp hunts.

 

[Richard295]

Fleece is a synthetic (polyester) alternative to wool. Woven wool base layers are similar to polyester base layers (Polartec Power Dry and Polartec Power Stretch) and shearling wool is similar to fleece insulation (Polartec 100, 200, 300, Thermal Pro, and Thermal Pro High Loft). Wool has a 35% moisture regain and polyester 2% (moisture absorbed inside the fiber). Wool feels dry when up to 35% wet because the moisture is stored inside the fiber. If similar thickness fleece and wool garments are saturated, the wool garment will take up to 5x longer to dry. Primarily for this reason, Natick Labs only uses fleece for any military base layers or insulation layer. The inherent odor proof properties of wool are now similar to fleece that has had a silver salt bath during the manufacturing process (Polygiene).

Polartec manufacturers over 300 variations of fleece and so I will over simplify the different types. In the order of their warmth / weight ratio: base layers; hard faced fleece / membrane fleece; classic fleece (100, 200, 300); Thermal Pro; and Thermal Pro high loft. Again using Natick Labs recommendations, the 3 of 300 variants recommended are a woven base layer, a gridded bi-component base layer, and a Thermal Pro Hi Loft insulation layer. When very active and the temps are above 0F, Natick Labs recommends 1 or 2 base layers combined with a Level 4 windshirt or Level 5 softshell. Their Level 3 fleece is .5mm thick and 1.3 clo; it is recommended when highly active from 0 to -25F or higher temps for lower activity. Fleece is an ideal active insulation because the air permeability is very high (~240 CFM); as a result, it doesn't lower the CFM of the Level 4 windshirt (~25 CFM) or Level 5 softshell (~5 CFM). Static use is not ideal for fleece because the amount of insulation required to be thermo-neutral goes up nominally 4x when static and the warmth to weight ratio of conventional puffys is dramatically higher than fleece.

With the advent of Thermal Pro and Thermal Pro high loft, the old classification mechanism of (g/m2 areal density) is no longer viable to determine the relative warmth. For an insulation layer, it is the thickness that determines the warmth. Natick Labs determined that Thermal Pro Hi Loft with .5mm thickness and 1.3 clo was adequate for active use to -25F. Fleece available in the commercial market is typically; 100 weight = .3mm; Thermal Pro 200 = .4 mm; 200 weight = .4mm; 300 weight = .5mm; Thermal Pro High Loft = .5mm - .7mm and 1.8 clo max. Examples of .7mm Thermal Pro High Loft include the MH Monkey Man, TNF Radium, Patagonia R3, and Melanzana.

A fleece vest covers 75% of the body surface area as a fleece jacket; so, the MH Monkey Man vest = .75 *1.8 clo = 1.5 clo. This is equivalent in warmth and function to the Military level 3 at about 1/2 half the weight and volume.

Surprisingly, you can compare the relative thickness of fleece garments by placing the wrist opening of the fabric between your thumb and first finger. First feel the thickness of your reference fleece and then immediately feel the thickness of a new fleece. I was taught this trick by a US Special Forces operator after I told him I thought the thickness of the Special Forces Level III was the same as the ECWCS Level III. He told me he could feel a difference using this technique and I could also after I tried it. I then tested both garments with a lab based laser thickness measurement device. Although the difference was only .1mm, it was detectable using this finger-to-thumb subjective method.

 

[Michiganhunter]

Richard maybe you can answer a question for me and I apologize if I derail the thread a little but when I'm thinking I gotta get it out before I forget. Here goes......what's the difference between the lvl 4 windshirirt and the lvl5 soft shell besides the lvl 5 having a hood and pit zips? They both are about 98%. nyon and the remainder spandex. I went with the lvl 5 because of the hood and pit zips I use it on my dirt bike and when I'm hunting. I also seam sealed it and sprayed it with waterproofing hoping that if I get caught out in the rain I'll stay relatively dry.

 

[mtwarden]

not Richard obviously, but the level 4 windshirt I have has an adjustable hood (no pitzips)- it's made by Patagonia (orc Industires also made them) and very similar to their civilian Houdini- slightly different cfm and HH and a heavier denier fabric

the level 5 is a softshell- quite a bit heavier, not as breathable- not sure on the water resistance between the two

 

[LBFowler]

There is quite a bit of variability between the various level 4 garments and the various level 5 garments.

My level 4 is made by Beyond/ADS, has a hood and one chest pocket. Like most level 4s it is made out of Epic, which uses silicone for water resistance rather then a DWR. There is quite a bit of variability in the breathability of Epic, so in my case my level 5s are a good bit more breathable then my level 4.

I have two level 5s, one with hood and one without. Both have two chest pockets and two arm pockets. Both are quite a bit heavier then the level 4 and has a tiny amount of stretch. The fabric is slightly heavier and I would assume slightly more durable, and relies on a traditional DWR. The level 5 is probably a bit quieter then the level 4 as well. I think the level 4 is a better performance garment, but the level 5 is more comfortable and convenient to live in.

Many of the early level 4s where half zip, very few (if any) have hand pockets, and nearly all are lighter and more packable then any level 5.

TL;DR: I wear my level 4 backpacking, and wear my level 5 for working outside.

 

[Richard295]

Michigan...,

The Level 4 is ~ half the weight of the Level 5, much less fully featured, and no stretch. Both the Level 4 (25 CFM max specification) and Level 5 (5 CFM max specification) are nylon with Epic silicone encapsulation for DWR good for the garment life. The Level 4 is 4.5 oz/yd2 and the Level 5 is 5.5 oz/yd2); so, the Level 5 is slightly more abrasion resistant. All commercial softshells and windshirts use C6 DWR or wax which quickly wears off when bushwhacking or if in sustained rain and they can't be reactivated in the field. They both have a minimum hydrostatic head of 300mm which allows them to be used as rain gear when active. Most commercial softshells and windshirts have a hydrostatic head less than 100mm. Natick Labs recommends the Level 4 in wet or dry conditions from 50F to 30F. Natick Labs recommends the Level 5 as an option to the Level 4 in the range 35F to 45F, in wet or dry conditions, and recommends it as the primary outerwear option below 35F. I use a Level 4 to below 0F when hunting active with a slightly heavier base layer than when using a Level 5.

Seam sealing with silicone is OK but I found only a couple of small spots that leaked after a sustained shower test. One was the hang tag / hang loop area and the second was the front zipper tape ends.

Natick Labs specifications list the minimum hydrostatic head for each garment type and the maximum air permeability. This results in garment variance from different manufactures primarily regarding the CFM level. The best Level 4 I have tested is the Wild Things Multicam version which achieves a greater than 300 mm HH while still achieving air permeability of ~30 CFM. This is accomplished by having extremely uniform interstitial spacing in the weave. An example of the variance is that the same Wild Things Level 4 in Coyote has only ~3 CFM but they both conform to the specs.

It was interesting for me to recently test the Patagonia Special Forces Level 4A (combined Level 3 in Alpha and Level 4) to find the garment is 34 CFM and 300 mm hydrostatic head. this is an equivalent combination of breathability and hydrostatic head than the Wild Things Multicam. These garments define the state of the art for aerobic activity in foul weather. The specifications for this garment are not released to the public. 35 has been the historical CFM value used for windshirts targeted towards high output aerobic activities such as the pre- 2013 Patagonia Houdinis.

I tested the Beyond Level 4 at only .58 CFM which made it the worst performing option for aerobic activities of all the Level 4 options.

The Level 5 I referred to above is type 1. The cloth for type I is a plain weave, stretch, nylon and spandex cloth with water repellency (e.g. Nextec Application Inc., Style GLACIER). The cloth for Type II is a twill weave, aramid, cellulosic, synthetic cloth with water repellency.

 

[Michiganhunter]

Thank you for explaining that I appreciate it. I am not sure who made mine I bought them at the army surplus store.

 

[LBFowler]

Richard-- would you go so far as to say that all level 5s have a epic style encapsilation and not a DWR? I have several varieties of epic and they all have a fairly distinctive sheen/hand that is quite different then my level 5 (made by atlantic diving supply, multicam, hoodless) and really the water repellency has lasted much longer then my other epic garments. Or is this simply part of the confusion of "ECWCS Gen III" getting lumped in with true "PCU" garments? I have simply never heard of the level 5 being anything but DWR while the epic fabric in other garments is well known (level 4, level 7, USMC happy suit, etc.)

I will attest to the breathability on the Beyond garment being pretty poor, I'm lucky in being a guy that doesn't sweat much and runs fairly cold and they were so darn cheap that I still use it quite a lot. The sad part is that the fit is so much better then the wildthings garment, in cold weather I'll end up with a bit of frost on the inside of my beyond.

 

[Richard295]

LBFowler,

See Amazon.com : USGI Special Forces PCU Level 5 Softshell Jacket - Medium - New : Sports & Outdoors. This is the Level 5 I am most familiar with and it is EPIC encapsulated. The Level 5 ECWCS specs state that there is a ECWCS type 1 using EPIC encapsulation but, there is also a ECWCS Level 5 type 2 (fire retardant) which uses DWR.

During hunting season I bushwhack an average of 12 miles per day. After about a week in the field, I wash an EPIC garment and invariably the water runs off the high abrasion areas like when the garment was new. Garments with a conventional C6 DWR invariably wet out in contrast because the DWR has completely worn off and can't be restored with washing and a half hour of 140F dryer heat.

I have made a similar comment as has Dave Chenault of Seek Outside regarding the contrast in breathability and garment design between the Wild Things Level 4 in multicam and the Beyond Level 4 in Alpha. Why can't a manufacture use an equivalent Wild Things fabric and the Beyond pattern or even a more technical pattern?

 

[LBFowler]

Well I am really hopeful that the ECWCS gen III is epic, I have been satisfied with its breathability and the features suit me well although a bit heavy, I'll have to wear it more until it stops beading water and wash it to see if it bounces back like epic. The lack of Epic hang tags on new examples gave me pause, as most PCU items will get a nextex tag when pertinent.

There does seem to be a dearth of Epic shells on the market, I don't know if it is as popular to wear as it is to talk about it but there does seem to be enough people curious about it that a recreational Epic shell could sell well enough.

 

[Richard295]

LBFowler,

The old Wild Things Epic polyester non-military windshirts had Epic tags in them. The newer Wild Things Epic military Level 4 nylon windshirts do not.

Most consumers do not bushwhack in wet weather or are in the bush for more than a couple of days at a time. Hence, I don't believe there is a strong commercial market demand for the solutions that Epic provides.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Another vote for the R1 from Patagonia. I also have and like the R2 in brown full zip or s I call it, the chewbacca smoking jacket. It is awesome but I wouldn't go there. It has a fuzzy fur like exterior that could get you mistaken for a bear or big foot out in the field.

 

[Leatherneck]

Fleece is a synthetic (polyester) alternative to wool. Woven wool base layers are similar to polyester base layers (Polartec Power Dry and Polartec Power Stretch) and shearling wool is similar to fleece insulation (Polartec 100, 200, 300, Thermal Pro, and Thermal Pro High Loft). Wool has a 35% moisture regain and polyester 2% (moisture absorbed inside the fiber). Wool feels dry when up to 35% wet because the moisture is stored inside the fiber. If similar thickness fleece and wool garments are saturated, the wool garment will take up to 5x longer to dry. Primarily for this reason, Natick Labs only uses fleece for any military base layers or insulation layer. The inherent odor proof properties of wool are now similar to fleece that has had a silver salt bath during the manufacturing process (Polygiene).

Polartec manufacturers over 300 variations of fleece and so I will over simplify the different types. In the order of their warmth / weight ratio: base layers; hard faced fleece / membrane fleece; classic fleece (100, 200, 300); Thermal Pro; and Thermal Pro high loft. Again using Natick Labs recommendations, the 3 of 300 variants recommended are a woven base layer, a gridded bi-component base layer, and a Thermal Pro Hi Loft insulation layer. When very active and the temps are above 0F, Natick Labs recommends 1 or 2 base layers combined with a Level 4 windshirt or Level 5 softshell. Their Level 3 fleece is .5mm thick and 1.3 clo; it is recommended when highly active from 0 to -25F or higher temps for lower activity. Fleece is an ideal active insulation because the air permeability is very high (~240 CFM); as a result, it doesn't lower the CFM of the Level 4 windshirt (~25 CFM) or Level 5 softshell (~5 CFM). Static use is not ideal for fleece because the amount of insulation required to be thermo-neutral goes up nominally 4x when static and the warmth to weight ratio of conventional puffys is dramatically higher than fleece.

With the advent of Thermal Pro and Thermal Pro high loft, the old classification mechanism of (g/m2 areal density) is no longer viable to determine the relative warmth. For an insulation layer, it is the thickness that determines the warmth. Natick Labs determined that Thermal Pro Hi Loft with .5mm thickness and 1.3 clo was adequate for active use to -25F. Fleece available in the commercial market is typically; 100 weight = .3mm; Thermal Pro 200 = .4 mm; 200 weight = .4mm; 300 weight = .5mm; Thermal Pro High Loft = .5mm - .7mm and 1.8 clo max. Examples of .7mm Thermal Pro High Loft include the MH Monkey Man, TNF Radium, Patagonia R3, and Melanzana.

A fleece vest covers 75% of the body surface area as a fleece jacket; so, the MH Monkey Man vest = .75 *1.8 clo = 1.5 clo. This is equivalent in warmth and function to the Military level 3 at about 1/2 half the weight and volume.

Surprisingly, you can compare the relative thickness of fleece garments by placing the wrist opening of the fabric between your thumb and first finger. First feel the thickness of your reference fleece and then immediately feel the thickness of a new fleece. I was taught this trick by a US Special Forces operator after I told him I thought the thickness of the Special Forces Level III was the same as the ECWCS Level III. He told me he could feel a difference using this technique and I could also after I tried it. I then tested both garments with a lab based laser thickness measurement device. Although the difference was only .1mm, it was detectable using this finger-to-thumb subjective method.

Great info! Glad I found it.