Large caliber vs. small caliber debate

[Choupique]

call BS on the idea a heavier recoiling rifle is slower to get on target and slower to get a shot off.

Eh. For me it is. I'd take a shot with my 6.5 with the butt of the rifle against my face and not have a second thought about it. Its heavy and has to me no perceptible recoil. With my .338, no way. I double check my body positioning before taking final aim and shooting, and it did cost me a bobcat once because i had to reposition a little bit, and it got away. Not that I'm remotely scared of it, I shoot it from field positions a whole lot and very much enjoy it. I just know that if I don't do it right, I'm going to miss my mark by some indeterminate amount and it's going to hurt. I have tested it banging steel, and I definitely shoot worse if my body positioning is terrible, so I take more time to make sure it isn't. With the 6.5 it matters far less, I don't see a difference in group size with it.

I see what you're saying and on paper you're correct, but in real life it's incorrect for me.

 

[TaperPin]

Eh. For me it is. I'd take a shot with my 6.5 with the butt of the rifle against my face and not have a second thought about it. Its heavy and has to me no perceptible recoil. With my .338, no way. I double check my body positioning before taking final aim and shooting, and it did cost me a bobcat once because i had to reposition a little bit, and it got away. Not that I'm remotely scared of it, I shoot it from field positions a whole lot and very much enjoy it. I just know that if I don't do it right, I'm going to miss my mark by some indeterminate amount and it's going to hurt. I have tested it banging steel, and I definitely shoot worse if my body positioning is terrible, so I take more time to make sure it isn't. With the 6.5 it matters far less, I don't see a difference in group size with it.

I see what you're saying and on paper you're correct, but in real life it's incorrect for me.

I can see that - a 338 definitely has to be shot differently - I’m not above backtracking a bit, if not taking back what I said altogether. Thinking in terms of always shooting a specific rifle, proper positioning for that rifle becomes automatic, but I failed to consider the folks who shoot lighter recoiling rifles differently. The trend to have little cheek pressure, short eye relief, etc definitely doesn’t translate well and almost requires lower recoil.

 

[hereinaz]

Sorry, but I’m also going to call BS on the idea a heavier recoiling rifle is slower to get on target and slower to get a shot off. The physics of getting the shot off isn’t any different - if it is slower, it’s a fear of the rifle - the problem is between the ears. That person is over gunned.

You have to experience it to understand.

 

[hereinaz]

I can see that - a 338 definitely has to be shot differently - I’m not above backtracking a bit, if not taking back what I said altogether. Thinking in terms of always shooting a specific rifle, proper positioning for that rifle becomes automatic, but I failed to consider the folks who shoot lighter recoiling rifles differently. The trend to have little cheek pressure, short eye relief, etc definitely doesn’t translate well and almost requires lower recoil.

I use the same scope, stock, trigger and set up all rifles the same. I use the same cheek pressure and position, but have to work harder and focus to manage higher recoil.

I agree with you, it comes down to the higher the recoil the more skilled and focused the shooter has to be.

 

[TaperPin]

You have to experience it to understand.

I get it - I don’t mind taking back what I said as a blanket statement. I shoot all rifles as if they were heavy recoiling - my positions don’t change, eye relief doesn’t change, shots are quick, but I can easily see how positions that are commonly used with 6.5 creed and below just aren’t suitable for more recoil and it would cause someone to slow down and double check.

 

[Grundy53]

It’s a false narrative that that the stereotypical western hunter starts out with a large caliber, skipping over smaller cartridges. As soon as kids are old enough to shoot accurately they’ve shot a 243 at varmints then deer and antelope. The number of 243’s out west is gigantic - kids and new shooters probably take more game with it than any other. Most move up to a larger gun, but that doesn’t put us into a vacuum without any contact with reality. Larger to some is 25-06, or a 270, 6.5 of some kind, 7mm or 30. The world where we only own and shoot a single big belted magnum doesn’t exist.

If a .243 is good enough for an inexperienced kid. How is it not more than enough for an experienced adult?

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[mt100gr.]

If a .243 is good enough for an inexperienced kid. How is it not more than enough for an experienced adult?

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He's gonna say "the angles" again....

 

[TaperPin]

If a .243 is good enough for an inexperienced kid. How is it not more than enough for an experienced adult?

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Because even a 270 does a better job of killing, at least when large groups of people are hunting the same camp, or even two buddies hunting together, and watching animals fall side by side, directly comparing animal reactions, year after year, decade after decade. It’s a really simple system.

The idea that performance on the animal is independent of the size of lead being thrown at it is silly.

 

[TaperPin]

He's gonna say "the angles" again....

Angles or just the animal reaction. Bigger rifles kill faster.

 

[Billogna]

Because even a 270 does a better job of killing, at least when large groups of people are hunting the same camp, or even two buddies hunting together, and watching animals fall side by side, directly comparing animal reactions, year after year, decade after decade. It’s a really simple system.

There's another gentleman on this very forum that uses this EXACT SAME system!! He even takes copious pictures and notes!! Even shares his findings publicly!! It's a really good system!!

 

[Grundy53]

Because even a 270 does a better job of killing, at least when large groups of people are hunting the same camp, or even two buddies hunting together, and watching animals fall side by side, directly comparing animal reactions, year after year, decade after decade. It’s a really simple system.

The idea that performance on the animal is independent of the size of lead being thrown at it is silly.

I believe that is a false narrative...

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[MT-nuffgun]

He's gonna say "the angles" again....

Dang it mt100gr, you made him default to “bigger rifles kill faster”.

 

[TaperPin]

There's another gentleman on this very forum that uses this EXACT SAME system!! He even takes copious pictures and notes!! Even shares his findings publicly!! It's a really good system!!

If you want to believe every animal just stands broadside for a shot, there’s nothing wrong buying into it - all those animals died just fine. If you think it’s an accurate depiction of animal reactions to a broad range of calibers and bullets, it’s not, and nothing I’ll say will change your mind.

The amount of internet distrust in actual hunting with anything larger than 25 cal is quite amazing. It’s too bad really. I suppose guys aren’t growing up in hunting families in hunting communities as often, and tags are harder to get, so more and more guys are forced to rely on internet hive knowledge, however biased it may be.

I wouldn’t expect anything else, carry on.

 

[Choupique]

failed to consider the folks who shoot lighter recoiling rifles differently.

I guess my point is that I don't really care what my body position is on a high percentage shot with my 6.5 and with my .338 I care a whole lot what my body position is regardless of the shot difficulty, which can definitely add some seconds to getting the shot off.

 

[TaperPin]

I believe that is a false narrative...

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I see it with my own eyes regularly, and it’s in many of the stories told here and elsewhere.

 

[hereinaz]

It’s a false narrative that that the stereotypical western hunter starts out with a large caliber, skipping over smaller cartridges. As soon as kids are old enough to shoot accurately they’ve shot a 243 at varmints then deer and antelope. The number of 243’s out west is gigantic - kids and new shooters probably take more game with it than any other. Most move up to a larger gun, but that doesn’t put us into a vacuum without any contact with reality. Larger to some is 25-06, or a 270, 6.5 of some kind, 7mm or 30. The world where we only own and shoot a single big belted magnum doesn’t exist.

Part of the issue is the culture, and doesn’t directly go to your more nuanced arguments. You are a different target than the majority of hunters.

Individuals may make the decision for smaller than magnum but bigger than .243, and they realize it works just fine. And, for the most part they work, if the shooter actually practices and does more than shoot paper plates to zero.

Remember, part of Form’s rant includes those who don’t shoot enough and they suck. Anyone who honestly gives an appraisal of the typical public range hunter has to agree, lol.

Of course, all the calibers you name are great, but they are still not .223 for moose…

Tell anyone who except small caliber aficionados that you are using a .243, and the comment 9 times out of 10 will be that’s not an elk cartridge. Don’t tell them you are shooting a “thin match bullet”.

And, on the other hand, read and listen to the industry. The common wisdom pushes men into big caliber and magnums, for the insurance when the bull is hard hard quartering and you have to punch through paunch with Barnes LRX and Triple shock.

Smaller calibers are tolerated/sold for kids and women, but are unacceptable as soon as you are big enough to handle the recoil because you need the power for big game.

I listen to Spommer and JVA for the entertainment value, and it is prevalent. Heck, listen to JVB talk with Seth from Hornady who killed tons of African animals with the .22 creed and .22 ARC on a trip.

It is illogical for JVB to make his arguments only two podcast later and name Form, but have treated Seth with kid gloves, except he has a vested interest in agreeing with whatever an industry insider says.

In Africa. all the animals died, some DRT. No real tracking and out to 500. Many with ELDx which are a hybrid match/interlock type bullet. They even froth about a close shot at high velocity that did not exit because if fragmented.

But, at the end of the episode JVB has to explain how the .223 bullet is just too small for big game.

 

[greyghostnw]

I think its terrain that should dictate more so of choice and how you hunt…Really dont get concern of recoil in magnums. My 300 rum 212’s is a kitten with side baffle brake. 5.8 pound rifle kitted out at 10 with ammo ta boot….All guns go bang, if knowing its going to hop a little from mild recoil and have a noise that startles you perhaps you should stick with archery… in high country on animals my concerns are the animals location for shot and problems to retrieve animal in other words if its on steep open terrain with steep timber near i want to anchor animal to minimize tracking, if ive done my work shots vertically are no concern just wind. Therefore a magnum shines and my distance to shoot is extended. Having the horse power if needed to is there if wanted. I dont see any reason to carry a smaller caliber in high country restricting distance of shot possibly. When i want more challenge i bring my bow….. in timber lowland i use the tool for that a 20” 308 with 185’s. To each there own,

 

[hereinaz]

I know that the poster that you quoted already answered, but I will add my experience to this.
I have shot a lot of competitions and a lot of big game. I jumped on the “low recoil train” a long time ago. That being said, what I was failing to do was adequately practice uncommon field positions and I was still carrying around the notion that I had to use something bigger for “trophy” hunting.
My 2023 moose hunt was the final wake-up call for me. I took my 300WM, which I had successfully used on 2 different nilgai hunts. My one opportunity at a moose turned out to be a super hectic one and I ended up missing on 5 consecutive shots. First time in my life that has happened, but just like industrial safety, everything is fine, until it isn’t.
I firmly believe that had I practiced in a few more unconventional field positions and I had been shooting my 7-08AI which I am much more experienced with and that is shooting a lighter non-premium bullet with a much better BC, I would have a moose mount and meat in the freezer rather than a cautionary tale to tell.

Small caliber does not make up for lack of practice.

But, a small caliber and practice is deadly in a way that can’t be ignored.

Of course, practice and a large caliber works too. But, I think takes more reps that most won’t pay for or suffer through. That is the beauty of the small caliber for practice.

 

[TaperPin]

I guess my point is that I don't really care what my body position is on a high percentage shot with my 6.5 and with my .338 I care a whole lot what my body position is regardless of the shot difficulty, which can definitely add some seconds to getting the shot off.

We’re just different I suppose. I tend to think hesitation in any form of shooting is a lack of training.

 

[hereinaz]

I think its terrain that should dictate more so of choice and how you hunt…Really dont get concern of recoil in magnums. My 300 rum 212’s is a kitten with side baffle brake. 5.8 pound rifle kitted out at 10 with ammo ta boot….All guns go bang, if knowing its going to hop a little from mild recoil and have a noise that startles you perhaps you should stick with archery… in high country on animals my concerns are the animals location for shot and problems to retrieve animal in other words if its on steep open terrain with steep timber near i want to anchor animal to minimize tracking, if ive done my work shots vertically are no concern just wind. Therefore a magnum shines and my distance to shoot is extended. Having the horse power if needed to is there if wanted. I dont see any reason to carry a smaller caliber in high country restricting distance of shot possibly. When i want more challenge i bring my bow….. in timber lowland i use the tool for that a 20” 308 with 185’s. To each there own,

No question the magnums shoot. It’s whether the shooter puts in the work to be able to do it.

Making the choice for what each person values most, that’s cool. No argument with you. I run my 7 when distances stretch and I want better ballistics.