Large caliber vs. small caliber debate

[Lawnboi]

That makes as much sense as showing up for a prairie dog shoot with only a big gun - it would be stupid. Big guns kill little targets way out there, but calling high volume shooting and the cartridges that fit that use the equivalent of big game hunting is silly.

I disagree.

Nrl hunter is not high volume shooting.

People shoot big guns at prairie dogs all the time. It’s great practice and even better showing the down sides of them.

If it makes you feel any better I shot a 3006 at my last nrl hunter match and beat a lot of people. I’ll be doing the same this year.

 

[TaperPin]

I agree; the first time I shot a brake, I was caught off guard by all of the debris flying around, and I was jumpy for my next shot, which was the end of my trial run with a brake, which was many years ago and I suspect brakes have improved, but I'll stay with a suppressor.

The guys that love brakes must have different dirt than what I’m used to, those dust clouds drive me nuts. I can understand how the ones that only vent to the sides are better, but I’m still not a fan.

I keep one brake so if a kid wants to see what it’s like they have a rifle to borrow.

 

[Justin Crossley]

That makes as much sense as showing up for a prairie dog shoot with only a big gun - it would be stupid. Big guns kill little targets way out there, but calling high volume shooting and the cartridges that fit that use the equivalent of big game hunting is silly.

That's not what NRL Hunter is about. Each stage only takes four rounds to get max score.

 

[TaperPin]

That's not what NRL Hunter is about. Each stage only takes four rounds to get max score.

When you’re shooting over 100 rounds, that’s much more like a varmint shoot than big game hunting. I know it sounds crazy, but all hunters that shoot 7 mag or 300 know it’s more comfortable to shoot smaller rounds, and we do, just not while hunting.

Even the idea that somehow guys that shoot a wide variety of cartridges can’t figure out which they are accurate with seems misguided and simplistic.

 

[wind gypsy]

When you’re shooting over 100 rounds, that’s much more like a varmint shoot than big game hunting. I know it sounds crazy, but all hunters that shoot 7 mag or 300 know it’s more comfortable to shoot smaller rounds, and we do, just not while hunting.

10 or so stages a day, 4 rounds needed for stage in a 4 minute par time.

I know 40-50 rounds in a day sounds like a lot for all the people who aren't bothered by recoil and are sure it doesn't impact their abilities yet only shoot that many rounds through their hunting rifles in a year or 2.

 

[Lawnboi]

When you’re shooting over 100 rounds, that’s much more like a varmint shoot than big game hunting. I know it sounds crazy, but all hunters that shoot 7 mag or 300 know it’s more comfortable to shoot smaller rounds, and we do, just not while hunting.

Even the idea that somehow guys that shoot a wide variety of cartridges can’t figure out which they are accurate with seems misguided and simplistic.

80 rounds over 2 days would get you a perfect score.

40 rounds a day isn’t bad. That’s spread over around 8 hours.

 

[TaperPin]

10 or so stages a day, 4 rounds needed for stage in a 4 minute par time.

I know 40-50 rounds in a day sounds like a lot for all the people who aren't bothered by recoil and are sure it doesn't impact their abilities yet only shoot that many rounds through their hunting rifles in a year or 2.

Yep, hunting rifles don’t have to be shot much. About 1990, after shooting a 243 all summer, I alternated between the 7 mag and 243 for a couple hundred rounds and that proved to me there was no benefit to using the 7 mag as a trainer. Since then I’ve repeated it a few times with the same results, so yeah, I’m plumb happy taking a hunting rifle that hasn’t been shot all year, checking zero with three rounds and hunting the rest of the season with it.

 

[Sadler]

I haven’t read through all of this so it may have been answered but at what range does this all start to matter? 200, 300, 400 yards? When will a 22 or 6creed be more accurate on an elk vitals sized target than a 7 or 300 PRC?

 

[Ryan Avery]

TaperPin, good point. I doubt most people here are average shooters or less and are most likely well above average. I also doubt most would be bothered by recoil enough to have an adverse effect on accuracy at any reasonable range game would be taken at. Certainly, 1000 yard hunters require a much higher level of skill many here do not currently have, myself included. My point is......most here do not need to resort to small caliber firearms to be successful in hunting regardless the perceived advantage...which is controversial. It's all pretty much just bullshit....but it makes for great discussion and keyboard hits.

I disagree, most of the people in this thread if tested would fail miserably in basic shooting positions in the field at 100 yards.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[littlebigtine]

Are you genuinely interested in understanding? Or are you just stirring the pot? I'll bite assuming the first.

This whole thing revolves around thresholds and optimizing as many factors as possible. No one is trying to truly maximize or minimize any one factor.

We don't minimize recoil (not truly). No one shoots a .22lr for elk because it doesn't meet the threshold for minimum acceptable wound channel.

We don't maximize wound channel. Almost no one shoots a .470 Nitro Express for Florida whitetail.

We don't even maximize the multiple "shootability" factors combined once we hit that wound channel threshold. No one carries a suppressed 40lb .223 into the mountains to hunt with.

If we meet the threshold for desired wound channel, then we look to optimize for shootability. Recoil is part of that, and if we get that down below a (admittedly fuzzy) threshold, then blast, noise, ear pro considerations, and animals' reaction to the shot start to become more important factors than bringing recoil to an absolute minimum.

That answer is satisfactory to me but to play devils advocate: a braked 7 prc cutting felt recoil by 50% should be +/- a couple ft/lbs the same as a 6creed with a ultra 5 on it( for arguments sake I extrapolated on the tbac data concerning the recoil reduction of their suppressors). Even if it is not quite there a couple pounds added to the braked magnum and voila: the felt recoil is pratically the same.

Personally, I prefer suppressors, so I am not trying to argue against them. I am also not trying to argue for or against magnums or 22 creeds.

It seems to me that this subject of “should I do this or should I do that” is very nuanced and the amount of variables are ridiculous.
Only way to find out for yourself what you prefer is to do it yourself. Obviously what a guy writes on a forum isn’t convincing enough. This thread is an indication.
That being said, we need to appreciate the people who are trying to share(not convince) what they find through lots of data, reps and experience. Anybody who approaches this conversation zero-sum cannot be trusted, but the people who are trying to share and evolve the sport and paradigm surrounding it, while considering the depth of complexity, are taking the lead down a path worth following.

 

[Lawnboi]

Yep, hunting rifles don’t have to be shot much. About 1990, after shooting a 243 all summer, I alternated between the 7 mag and 243 for a couple hundred rounds and that proved to me there was no benefit to using the 7 mag as a trainer. Since then I’ve repeated it a few times with the same results, so yeah, I’m plumb happy taking a hunting rifle that hasn’t been shot all year, checking zero with three rounds and hunting the rest of the season with it.

Keep an open mind and sign up for a skills division shoot at the nearest nrl hunter for you, you would have fun. One day shoot you 7 mag, next day shoot your 243.

There is nothing wrong with shooting bigger stuff. I do occasionally, like in nrl hunter because I’m forced to meet their arbitrary power factor. A bigger, heavier gun imo is a tool I’d like to have in my tool box eventually when my skill or area determines I can take advantage of it.

That dosnt mean smaller stuff dosnt work. I’ll still reach for the 223 or 22 creed when hunting at normal sub 400 yards because it’s just a more effective tool. I’m losing nothing to my 3006 or 300wsm and gaining a lot.

 

[eric1115]

That answer is satisfactory to me but to play devils advocate: a braked 7 prc cutting felt recoil by 50% should be +/- a couple ft/lbs the same as a 6creed with a ultra 5 on it( for arguments sake I extrapolated on the tbac data concerning the recoil reduction of their suppressors). Even if it is not quite there a couple pounds added to the braked magnum and voila: the felt recoil is pratically the same.

Personally, I prefer suppressors, so I am not trying to argue against them. I am also not trying to argue for or against magnums or 22 creeds.

It seems to me that this subject of “should I do this or should I do that” is very nuanced and the amount of variables are ridiculous.
Only way to find out for yourself what you prefer is to do it yourself. Obviously what a guy writes on a forum isn’t convincing enough. This thread is an indication.
That being said, we need to appreciate the people who are trying to share(not convince) what they find through lots of data, reps and experience. Anybody who approaches this conversation zero-sum cannot be trusted, but the people who are trying to share and evolve the sport and paradigm surrounding it, while considering the depth of complexity, are taking the lead down a path worth following.

The purchase of my first suppressor was what gave me a violent shove down the smaller caliber, smaller cartridge path.

I'd seen it for my kids and friends' kids, that the typical "kids' guns" in 7mm-08, 6.5CM, etc were too much gun for a 75lb kid to develop good habits with, but my braked 7mmRM was so good with 180 hybrids that I didn't want to give it up. Pretty good ability to spot impacts, monster in the wind, and zero doubts about terminal performance. I started shooting smaller stuff and kids' guns suppressed, and quickly decided I want to use suppressors all the time on everything.

Suppressed, that 7mmRM was certainly not unpleasant to shoot, but spotting impacts in the scope was something I had come to appreciate with the brake and could not do it as reliably with the can.

Fast forward to now, 7mm is gone, and my long range hunting rifle is a suppressed .243AI, with no plans of going back.

I think one of the the things I find interesting is that it appears to be nearly a one way street. Lots and lots of guys going from big magnums to small caliber with heavy match bullets, but not many guys trying small caliber with good bullets, and finding it doesn't perform well enough and going to big stuff.

 

[TaperPin]

Keep an open mind and sign up for a skills division shoot at the nearest nrl hunter for you, you would have fun. One day shoot you 7 mag, next day shoot your 243.

There is nothing wrong with shooting bigger stuff. I do occasionally, like in nrl hunter because I’m forced to meet their arbitrary power factor. A bigger, heavier gun imo is a tool I’d like to have in my tool box eventually when my skill or area determines I can take advantage of it.

That dosnt mean smaller stuff dosnt work. I’ll still reach for the 223 or 22 creed when hunting at normal sub 400 yards because it’s just a more effective tool. I’m losing nothing to my 3006 or 300wsm and gaining a lot.

I usually stand up for the larger calibers, but many folks don’t realize I enjoy hunting with a wide range of rifles. As much as I poo poo a 6mm bullet for trophy hunting, right now my favorite doe rifle is a 6mm-06, and I’ve got a range of small stuff from 22 creed, 243, 25-06, 6.5 creed and PRC, 270, 7mm-08, 308. Varmint rifles from 17 HMR, 204 Ruger, 22-250, 6br. For myself and any of my shooting buddies, we see animals taken with a wide variety of smaller bullets every year, always have, but definitely have larger favorites for trophy hunting when the angle isn’t always ideal.

 

[TaperPin]

That's not what NRL Hunter is about. Each stage only takes four rounds to get max score.

I do like what you guys are doing with NRL - it does sound like a great way to build skills. Hopefully more people get in on it. Anything that gets people to shoot more is a good thing.

 

[Lawnboi]

I usually stand up for the larger calibers, but many folks don’t realize I enjoy hunting with a wide range of rifles. As much as I poo poo a 6mm bullet for trophy hunting, right now my favorite doe rifle is a 6mm-06, and I’ve got a range of small stuff from 22 creed, 243, 25-06, 6.5 creed and PRC, 270, 7mm-08, 308. Varmint rifles from 17 HMR, 204 Ruger, 22-250, 6br. For myself and any of my shooting buddies, we see animals taken with a wide variety of smaller bullets every year, always have, but definitely have larger favorites for trophy hunting when the angle isn’t always ideal.

I guess that’s where we differ. If the angle isn’t ideal I don’t shoot. What’s in my hands really dosnt matter. Every hunt I go on to me is a trophy hunt.

I havnt seen a reason yet to shoot anything larger after being forced to shoot 223 for a season. I didn’t believe it but after a bunch of deer now I just don’t see any shot that I would take with my old 300 that I wouldn’t take with my 223.

The difference now is I can practice more, and be confident what I hunt with. That confidence, combined with seeing what happens at the shot has made everything go much smoother when it comes time to pull the trigger.

I was a 300 for everything person, just my personal experience.

 

[TaperPin]

I guess that’s where we differ. If the angle isn’t ideal I don’t shoot. What’s in my hands really dosnt matter. Every hunt I go on to me is a trophy hunt.

I havnt seen a reason yet to shoot anything larger after being forced to shoot 223 for a season. I didn’t believe it but after a bunch of deer now I just don’t see any shot that I would take with my old 300 that I wouldn’t take with my 223.

The difference now is I can practice more, and be confident what I hunt with. That confidence, combined with seeing what happens at the shot has made everything go much smoother when it comes time to pull the trigger.

I was a 300 for everything person, just my personal experience.

It sounds like it’s working well for you. Practicing more is really important.

 

[Speaks]

Debating ideal caliber for a hunt weighing a multitude of variables makes sense. Debating weather people can shoot large caliber as well as small does not. Most people will shoot small better, virtually none will shoot large better.

Some tiny percent may shoot them equally, a less tiny percent will shoot them close enough to as well to not matter, a much larger percentage will shoot them well enough to be effective.

How this all factors in to how to ideally balance everything going in to a hunting selection gets interesting again.

 

[HuntHarder]

Looks like most agree on just about everything except the ability to shoot accurately. I'm good with that. Appreciate all the productive comments.