Large caliber vs. small caliber debate

[bmart2622]

^^^^^ Thats a lot of anal!!!

 

[grizz19]

Shooting MOA groups is much easier from a bench or prone or really any controlled situation where you're addressing the rifle the same way shot to shot. In this scenario, any dispersion impacts from recoil may be similar round to round because you're in a controlled situation building the exact same position shot to shot thus the group stays tight. When in significantly different and more compromised positions, POI is going to shift more in part due to your rifle moving differently under recoil in different positions due to what forces you are imparting on the rifle. Similar to this, but not entirely due to recoil, you'll tend to see larger groups if someone builds a position from scratch for every shot vs staying in position and shooting a group.

This is part of what the kraft drill seeks to diagnose - kraft drill is shooting shots from prone, seating, kneeling, standing (all supported). It's not uncommon to have varying POI from different positions. I tend to have lower POI from the prone occasionally if loading a bipod for example.

Also, i think part of my statement about ALL shooters shooting lower recoil better seemed to get missed The debate is in to what extent. Certainly its possible and likely for external ballistics to outweigh impact in shooter's precision capabilities from increased recoil but its largely situation specific. Until one shoots a bunch and measures the difference in actual field type positions/conditions, it seems pretty hard to know just what the impact is.

Agreed. Field positions open up groups regardless of caliber. Unstable/uneven terrain makes keeping small groups very difficult. And honestly I’m
Not talking about shooting groups, I got away from my point a little. My main point is simply first round accuracy down range. I think it will be the same with large vs small caliber when shooting from an equal shooting position. Now if you get into a situation with no rear rest of any kind and the butt is floating off the ground, then I can see a higher probability of a larger caliber having a different impact point than a small one.

You won’t hear a ton of argument from me on overall shooting smaller caliber is better. I do think there’s something to that, especially when you get into field positions. I think based on the shooter as you said, that difference can be minimal. Or under a controlled environment I think it could be just as good. But staying on target and quickly getting a second round off in the field, I’m not sure there’s much of an argument as far as a small caliber being able to do that better or more efficiently.

 

[mtnbound]

Yeah anyone with one of those wifey/GF things lives that same conundrum LOL

Dunno what the exact measurement is - one could guess larger calibers would be more, but without a direct comparison, no way to tell what that number would be.

Yeah, I think a lot of people make good shots with many calibers. Fundamentals matter.

I agree fundamentals are critical, and the further distance you shoot, the more they matter. As he mentions, "Any deviation from the exact line of recoil will cause dispersion from basic aiming error - the gun pointed somewhere different than it was when you broke the trigger. As a shooter you have some control over this with consistent fundamentals, recoil management, etc. But you're not managing it down to the 0.001" on every shot. Precision rifles that inherently shoot small groups need to minimize the movement of the platform prior to bullet exit." I remember going to matches with my 7STW and watching guys with smaller calibers and thinking, why bother? I can shoot well. That was until a guy offered to let me shoot his setup, and I found that I put a lot of effort into controlling my rifle. With his setup, I had to use little to no effort, and that was my AH HA moment.

 

[littlebigtine]

Hold up I have a question. If recoil is the monster we are all trying to fight why does it seem that most of us use suppressors instead of 4 port brakes?
would a braked 22 creed not be the holy grail?
Who hunts with one instead of suppressed?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Will you post a video of you shooting a small caliber 30 shots sub moa?

Sure if you’d like.

 

[Flynhunt]

Also, i think part of my statement about ALL shooters shooting lower recoil better seemed to get missed The debate is in to what extent.

This exactly^
This is why I don’t think the 20 rnd timed drill is the greatest comparison to a hunting situation. I would agree that hit percentage probably deteriorates over 20 rnds, but hunting would be closer to say 1-3 rounds. The reaction to the recoil over multiple successive shots with the magnum would require more conscious effort to overcome. But how much does that come into play in only a couple shots? Perhaps it still does, but the gap may be tightened.

 

[mtnbound]

Hold up I have a question. If recoil is the monster we are all trying to fight why does it seem that most of us use suppressors instead of 4 port brakes?
would a braked 22 creed not be the holy grail?
Who hunts with one instead of suppressed?

I like to hunt without ear-pro, so a suppressor is my choice. Brakes do work but are loud and obnoxious IMO.

 

[deerhunter628]

Sure if you’d like.

That would be great

 

[mtnbound]

This exactly^
This is why I don’t think the 20 rnd timed drill is the greatest comparison to a hunting situation. I would agree that hit percentage probably deteriorates over 20 rnds, but hunting would be closer to say 1-3 rounds. The reaction to the recoil over multiple successive shots with the magnum would require more conscious effort to overcome. But how much does that come into play in only a couple shots? Perhaps it still does, but the gap may be tightened.

There is only one way to find out: modify the drill with fewer rounds and see how it goes for yourself. I feel the 20 rounds show the ability to be consistent with every shot.

 

[Article 4]

Hold up I have a question. If recoil is the monster we are all trying to fight why does it seem that most of us use suppressors instead of 4 port brakes?
would a braked 22 creed not be the holy grail?
Who hunts with one instead of suppressed?

Many suppressor include a brake within the direct mounting system - combined, they reduce recoil in many cases more than a brake alone

 

[grizz19]

Yeah anyone with one of those wifey/GF things lives that same conundrum LOL

Dunno what the exact measurement is - one could guess larger calibers would be more, but without a direct comparison, no way to tell what that number would be.

Yeah, I think a lot of people make good shots with many calibers. Fundamentals matter.

I think so too haha

Agreed. I’m sure it would be slightly more but would it be noticeable beyond our shooting capabilities? That I’m not sure.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

That would be great

Sure! I’ll be back to AZ Christmas Eve (just landed in CA visiting family). I’ll be able to get a video posted up sometime just after Christmas.

 

[bergie]

Hate to break it to you, but you’re “big magnum cult” is 10s of thousands of times larger than any “small gun cult” that may exist.

Holy smokes I can't believe I just put that together. This argument for some is nothing more than the slighted minority vs the oppressive majority. No wonder so much animosity.

All I want for Christmas is for people to present fact based arguments. Reading through pages of butthurt from both sides is why threads like this are started.

As Billy Madison said:

 

[Thegman]

Well, hell, I guess I'll add my 2 cents...

I think a lot of these discussions become "debates" more due to a lack of nuance than anything else.

I think sometimes we're talking about differences that would matter more in winning a PRS match with constant variables across the board, than people's specific hunting situations with all kinds of variables between each person.

E.g. I seem to be able to kill stuff as well with my 308 /30-06 as I can with my 223s. The differences in potential group sizes / "shootability" may simply not come into play at -my- typical hunting ranges and target sizes, but might for a different hunter shooting different animals at different ranges. I don't think there's "one correct answer" to a multitude of situations with a multitude of variables.

Since all of the above work fine for me, the platform available for the cartridge makes a much bigger difference than which might be the easiest to shoot "the best", if all shoot well enough for me.

 

[TaperPin]

People really need to get out and shoot more - there’s so many strange beliefs about different cartridges and shooting in general that it boggles the mind.

Take any shooter prairie dog hunting with a wide variety of calibers and in the course of one day they can tell you what each rifle hit rates are at distance, and what recoil level reduces hits. Even a teenager without taking notes, without a forum membership, even socially awkward without a girlfriend, can easily see what works and what doesn’t. Every person on the trip knows what guns different shooters shoot well and which they don’t. Prairie dog trips are more enjoyable to shoot primarily with smaller calibers, but in addition to those I’ve rarely gone out without taking a 270 or 7 mag as well as a bigger bore, and a variety of pistols. The amount of keyboard guessing would be dramatically reduced. In theory, banging steel should give the same results, but for many it’s different being actually in the field shooting at actual animals.

It’s not as common in many places to have large volumes of beady eyed targets, but just go shoot rocks or cardboard boxes and have fun. I can take 4 girls shooting rocks, trading rifles around, and in one day it’s obvious to who shoots what rifle well. Maybe shooters have become too isolated and don’t get out with friends as much. Some of the most memorable educational experiences have been spent watching others shoot - how they get in position, how they talk through their shot process. There are a lot of experienced long range hunters who are deadly accurate with their traditional cartridge and favorite 1/2 MOA rifle - showing up to shoot with a 1 MOA gun of any cartridge and the odds of beating them at long range are essential zero.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Holy smokes I can't believe I just put that together. This argument for some is nothing more than the slighted minority vs the oppressive majority. No wonder so much animosity.

All I want for Christmas is for people to present fact based arguments. Reading through pages of butthurt from both sides is why threads like this are started.

As Billy Madison said:
View attachment 808060

Why do you think there is animosity? Certainly none from my side towards anybody.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

People really need to get out and shoot more - there’s so many strange beliefs about different cartridges and shooting in general that it boggles the mind.

Take any shooter prairie dog hunting with a wide variety of calibers and in the course of one day they can tell you what each rifle hit rates are at distance, and what recoil level reduces hits. Even a teenager without taking notes, without a forum membership, even socially awkward without a girlfriend, can easily see what works and what doesn’t. Every person on the trip knows what guns different shooters shoot well and which they don’t. Prairie dog trips are more enjoyable to shoot primarily with smaller calibers, but I’ve rarely gone out without a 270 or 7 mag as well as a bigger bore. The amount of keyboard guessing would be dramatically reduced. In theory, banging steel should give the same results, but for many it’s different being actually in the field shooting at actual animals.

It’s not as common in many places to have large volumes of beady eyed targets, but just go shoot rocks or cardboard boxes and have fun. I can take 4 girls shooting rocks, trading rifles around, and in one day it’s obvious to who shoots what rifle well. Maybe shooters have become too isolated and don’t get out with friends as much. Some of the most memorable educational experiences have been spent watching others shoot - how they get in position, how they talk through their shot process. There are a lot of experienced long range hunters who are deadly accurate with their traditional cartridge and favorite 1/2 MOA rifle - showing up to shoot with a 1 MOA gun of any cartridge and the odds of beating them at long range are essential zero.

If only more folks had the opportunity to varmint hunt, the world would be a better place haha.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Small, moving targets. Yet still enough to get visual and audible confirmation of hits. Learning fundamentals of shooting and keeping target in the scope. Learning to judge animal distance travelled through the scope. Learning wind shooting and calling. Learning to move quickly from one target to the next without leaving the scope. Learning how to rack the bolt quickly while still on the scope….

There is no greater shooting training tool than going varmint hunting. Bring a few guns and have a day!!!

 

[insanelupus]

Wow, four pages in and I'm a little disappointed.

It was far more amusing, 50 years ago.

Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith - RifleShooter

Back in the 1970s we were fortunate to have two of our sport's all-time superstars working for the old Petersen Publishing Company: Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor.

www.rifleshootermag.com

 

[TaperPin]

Small, moving targets. Yet still enough to get visual and audible confirmation of hits. Learning fundamentals of shooting and keeping target in the scope. Learning to judge animal distance travelled through the scope. Learning wind shooting and calling. Learning to move quickly from one target to the next without leaving the scope. Learning how to rack the bolt quickly while still on the scope….

There is no greater shooting training tool than going varmint hunting. Bring a few guns and have a day!!!

Amen!