Large caliber vs. small caliber debate

[grizz19]

In a hunting gun, which most folks want somewhere around 8 lbs all in, it absolutely is enough difference in movement or recoil to change impact.

Ok if this is true, how is it possible to shoot a big magnum sub moa? Or sub half moa? That’s as good as people are shooting smaller calibers correct? I know for a fact lots of 7mm and 30 cals shoot sub minute. What I’m saying is all things being equal, you can shoot a large cal just as good as a small cal on the first shot. Hurried follow up shots are where you could start seeing a difference.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Appreciate it, I added a little verbage that I was missing. Am I correct in saying a 225gr eldm 300rum will penetrate deeper than an 80gr eldm .223 if both entrance velocities are the same? Say both at 1800 fps.

In what I’ve seen it may or may not penetrate deeper. In general though, in what I’ve seen, it will create a larger and more destructive wound.

 

[ElGuapo]

I’ve had hundreds of shooters of all skill levels say the same or similar things. From their first time shooting a rifle being that day, to professional shooters from several different disciplines, to the “above average shooter” who likes to hunt…

In the same rifle, in the same weight, setup in the same position, you do not and will not have higher hit rates with your unbaked 300 magnum than your 22-250. That’s only a “thing” that exists on the internet. When it’s actually put to the test in real life, the amount of guys who have eaten a slice of humble pie would surprise you.

You’re right…….

 

[texasbbq]

Holes kill animals, not headstamps.

 

[hereinaz]

Do you think this is caused by the shooter flinching due to recoil? Or caused by recoil affecting the bullet before it exits the barrel?

I am not one to say how well one person shoots their magnums and how well they can kill. Maybe they have the training or the mojo. Those people exist.

I am not one to say that everyone should sell their magnums and buy a .223. Shoot what you want.

Saying that everyone can shoot a lighter recoiling rifle better shouldn’t be controversial. It doesn’t mean any one person can’t shoot a magnum efficiently or effectively.

It doesn’t mean anything more than what it means. It seems to me that some shooters are offended by the idea.

Of course some shooters can shoot magnums just fine. But, there are probably many who are lying to themselves.

I mean, there is really no controversy in saying that women and children shoot smaller calibers better. Even though there are some that shoot magnums. Why would it be any different for men?

Back to the question, I think It’s both flinch and recoil generally, but with the well trained it’s gonna be rifle movement more than flinch. It’s one reason why any rifle, but especially magnums are easier to shoot the heavier the rifle, whether braked or suppressed.

But, as of today, I have never seen a shooter that can shoot their hunting magnums as good or better than a smaller caliber rifle in field positions on the clock or at long range.

I haven’t shot as many rounds as some, but of the thousands I have shot, I know that I can shoot my 6mm better than my 7mm. And, I killed stuff dead with my 7 just the same.

There is actually a way to think it through and understand the physical principles. The math kinda shows why a rifle only has to move an imperceptible amount to see an effect—like the width of a human hair (.002) before the bullet leaves the barrel.

One moa is 1.047 inch at 300 feet, and one moa at 1 foot is .003 inches. If a barrel moves a tiny bit, it matters.

It is widely held belief that “barrel harmonics” moves barrels, and that affect group size. If barrels are moving/bending before the bullet leaves, why can’t the whole rifle be moving as well.

According to the theory, barrel harmonics matter by maybe .5 inch at 100 yards. At the barrel that movement has to be around .003 if the barrel is two feet from the scope.

Rifle movement is dependent on overcoming momentum relative to the recoil impulse. The butt of a rifle is a little more than a foot from the chamber, where the movement originates, and about a couple feet from the center of gravity of most rifles.

In a quick field position, a magnum rifle has many avenues to exploit for that .003 or .006 amount of movement, because the position will not be perfect.

In addition to that, if the rifle is moving when the bullet leaves the barrel then that movement is added to the bullets trajectory. It’s like throwing a baseball from a moving car, the movement of the pitcher when the ball is released has to be factored in.

If it moves .0015, then it’s already .5 moa off, plus it has that movement of the barrel slinging the bullet which is going to add to it. It’s not nothing.

Ever wonder why so many long range magnum shots are “over the back”?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Ok if this is true, how is it possible to shoot a big magnum sub moa?

By practicing and shooting a lot. It also greatly helps having a rifle close to double the weight that most folks want to carry hunting.

Or sub half moa? That’s as good as people are shooting smaller calibers correct?

Sure. Answer is the same as above.

I know for a fact lots of 7mm and 30 cals shoot sub minute.

What guns and scopes and with which bullets and with what shooter are you regularly seeing “sub minute” accuracy for minimum 20 shot groups at 100 yards? This is regardless of bullet diameter. I’ve personally only seen this happen consistently with bench rest and/or weighted guns, with friends of mine and myself shooting hand loads and who shoot 1,000s of rounds a month. If you are capable of this please post a video would be cool to see!

What I’m saying is all things being equal, you can shoot a large cal just as good as a small cal on the first shot. Hurried follow up shots are where you could start seeing a difference.

All things are not always equal when we are hunting unfortunately.

Nobody here is saying that folks cannot accurately shoot heavier recoiling cartridges. What some are saying is based on what they’ve seen in real life, and/or practiced for themselves, is that they’ve noticed a stark difference and increase in down range accuracy/repeatability when shooting hunting weight guns in cartridges that don’t recoil heavily. This is especially noticed when not on a bench or at home on a comfortable “flat range” where everything is setup perfectly and you wait for a morning with no wind or bad weather, etc.

For me personally it’s the whole “cost benefit analysis” thing. I’ve found that a 22 Creedmoor hits a sweet spot for me for around 800ish yards and in. From a pure “point and click” and watch things die standpoint.

On some hunts and for some animals, I don’t want to be limited to 800ish yards. So I’ll grab one of my rifles that allows for killing ability at longer ranges. For that I usually like my 7SAUM or 7PRC or something along those lines. I don’t shoot these as accurately as my 6.5, 6mm, or 22 Creedmoor, but I practice A LOT and regularly ring 10-12” steel gongs from hunting shooting positions out past 1,000 yards.

 

[HuntHarder]

It'd be a really cool drill to set up a 6cm and a 300 win mag exactly the same. Then give the shooter one and him not know which one he has. Document his first round hits and see if it is higher on the Cm.

 

[Article 4]

This doesn’t exactly makes sense to me. Energy,momentum, etc happens after the shot brakes so should have no effect on the accuracy of the first shot. If I’m not mistaken the bullet will be gone out of the barrel before that takes effect on the shooter. All things being equal with mechanics, and supports when the shot breaks, shots should just be just as accurate with a large caliber as a small caliber. Follow up shot speed and accuracy is where I would see energy and momentum potentially making a difference.

I wondered the same thing so I went looking for some illustrations on this. The best one I could find is attached from AB and Bryan Litz - only place was on FB

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=409154287939163

If you cannot watch it, the pics show that before the bullet has completely exited the barrel, the barrel is moving rearward - if you drive the rifle straight back, probably minimal issue. If not, could affect flight for sure

 

[grizz19]

By practicing and shooting a lot. It also greatly helps having a rifle close to double the weight that most folks want to carry hunting.

Sure. Answer is the same as above.

What guns and scopes and with which bullets and with what shooter are you regularly seeing “sub minute” accuracy for minimum 20 shot groups at 100 yards? This is regardless of bullet diameter. I’ve personally only seen this happen consistently with bench rest and/or weighted guns, with friends of mine and myself shooting hand loads and who shoot 1,000s of rounds a month. If you are capable of this please post a video would be cool to see!

All things are not always equal when we are hunting unfortunately.

Nobody here is saying that folks cannot accurately shoot heavier recoiling cartridges. What some are saying is based on what they’ve seen in real life, and/or practiced for themselves, is that they’ve noticed a stark difference and increase in down range accuracy/repeatability when shooting hunting weight guns in cartridges that don’t recoil heavily. This is especially noticed when not on a bench or at home on a comfortable “flat range” where everything is setup perfectly and you wait for a morning with no wind or bad weather, etc.

For me personally it’s the whole “cost benefit analysis” thing. I’ve found that a 22 Creedmoor hits a sweet spot for me for around 800ish yards and in. From a pure “point and click” and watch things die standpoint.

On some hunts and for some animals, I don’t want to be limited to 800ish yards. So I’ll grab one of my rifles that allows for killing ability at longer ranges. For that I usually like my 7SAUM or 7PRC or something along those lines. I don’t shoot these as accurately as my 6.5, 6mm, or 22 Creedmoor, but I practice A LOT and regularly ring 10-12” steel gongs from hunting shooting positions out past 1,000 yards.

There are a ton of hunting brand and custom rifles out there with a minute or half minute guarantee. I’m not talking heavy guns or a lightweight 6mm, my 7prc comes in just shy of 10lbs fully loaded. UM has a half minute guarantee on their rifles I believe and I don’t think caliber changes that guarantee they offer. We arent talking 20 shot groups, I would think most people are shooting 3 shots to check their accuracy, maybe not on rokslide, but in totality. And I’m not against 20 shots groups, I’m talking 3 shots like most companies advertise.

But I’m not talking groups or anything. No nothing in the field is equal, I’m say in equal circumstances, take an accurate 6creed with a 108 eldm and an accurate 7prc with a 180 eldm, get prone on a bipod or backpack with a bino harness as a rear rest, you can lay behind either one and make just as accurate of a first shot with both.

I’m lucky and have grown up in the hunting/ranching world and my dad has a nice collection of hunting rifles. We will go to the ranch to shoot and most of the time I will get to shoot either his old 222, a 257 Roberts, or his 6mm Remington in between shooting my PRC. I can shoot them all just as well. Now if we started talking running the bolt quickly and making a quick follow up shot, then the smaller calibers will have the advantage. But initial shots, in my experience, I cannot tell a difference between calibers With an equal rest.

 

[grizz19]

I wondered the same thing so I went looking for some illustrations on this. The best one I could find is attached from AB and Bryan Litz - only place was on FB

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=409154287939163

If you cannot watch it, the pics show that before the bullet has completely exited the barrel, the barrel is moving rearward - if you drive the rifle straight back, probably minimal issue. If not, could affect flight for sure

I will watch this when I get a chance. I’m always up for being wrong, just ask my wife based on reading your post, you’re not going to be .0000, regardless of caliber then correct? My main point I was trying to make it initial shot with a small caliber and a large caliber can be equally accurate with good fundamentals and a good rest. Which I still believe.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

My main point I was trying to make it initial shot with a small caliber and a large caliber can be equally accurate with good fundamentals and a good rest. Which I still believe.

I also believe this. Problem is “good fundamentals” and a “good rest” lots of times go right out the window when a big buck or bull presents itself.

 

[hereinaz]

My main point I was trying to make it initial shot with a small caliber and a large caliber can be equally accurate with good fundamentals and a good rest. Which I still believe.

We both can be right, the points are mutually exclusive. The conditions you put in are where the discussion lies--good fundamentals and a good rest, both of which are subject to compromise while hunting in a timed and uncontrolled environment.

 

[Article 4]

I will watch this when I get a chance. I’m always up for being wrong, just ask my wife based on reading your post, you’re not going to be .0000, regardless of caliber then correct? My main point I was trying to make it initial shot with a small caliber and a large caliber can be equally accurate with good fundamentals and a good rest. Which I still believe.

Yeah anyone with one of those wifey/GF things lives that same conundrum LOL

Dunno what the exact measurement is - one could guess larger calibers would be more, but without a direct comparison, no way to tell what that number would be.

Yeah, I think a lot of people make good shots with many calibers. Fundamentals matter.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

get prone on a bipod or backpack with a bino harness as a rear rest, you can lay behind either one and make just as accurate of a first shot with both.

In my 13 big game kills since September this year, only two of the animals and terrain/vegetation allowed for prone off of bipod or backpack.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

It'd be a really cool drill to set up a 6cm and a 300 win mag exactly the same. Then give the shooter one and him not know which one he has. Document his first round hits and see if it is higher on the Cm.

This has been done. It’s a very effective “test”.

In what I’ve seen personally going back around 15 years now instructing, and what Ryan and Form have documented in the shoot2hunt courses; as you stated it is way higher on average with the CM between those two guns.

 

[grizz19]

I also believe this. Problem is “good fundamentals” and a “good rest” lots of times go right out the window when a big buck or bull presents itself.

Now this I completely agree with most of the time buck fever takes over.

In my 13 big game kills since September this year, only two of the animals and terrain/vegetation allowed for prone off of bipod or backpack.

Agreed, shot opportunities do not always allow to get prone. My bull this year I was able to get prone with good front and rear rest. I’m not saying the positions don’t vary, and I’m not saying you can get prone every time, I am saying that with equally as solid of a rest between a small and large caliber Your first shot can be just as accurate.

 

[deerhunter628]

By practicing and shooting a lot. It also greatly helps having a rifle close to double the weight that most folks want to carry hunting.

Sure. Answer is the same as above.

What guns and scopes and with which bullets and with what shooter are you regularly seeing “sub minute” accuracy for minimum 20 shot groups at 100 yards? This is regardless of bullet diameter. I’ve personally only seen this happen consistently with bench rest and/or weighted guns, with friends of mine and myself shooting hand loads and who shoot 1,000s of rounds a month. If you are capable of this please post a video would be cool to see!

All things are not always equal when we are hunting unfortunately.

Nobody here is saying that folks cannot accurately shoot heavier recoiling cartridges. What some are saying is based on what they’ve seen in real life, and/or practiced for themselves, is that they’ve noticed a stark difference and increase in down range accuracy/repeatability when shooting hunting weight guns in cartridges that don’t recoil heavily. This is especially noticed when not on a bench or at home on a comfortable “flat range” where everything is setup perfectly and you wait for a morning with no wind or bad weather, etc.

For me personally it’s the whole “cost benefit analysis” thing. I’ve found that a 22 Creedmoor hits a sweet spot for me for around 800ish yards and in. From a pure “point and click” and watch things die standpoint.

On some hunts and for some animals, I don’t want to be limited to 800ish yards. So I’ll grab one of my rifles that allows for killing ability at longer ranges. For that I usually like my 7SAUM or 7PRC or something along those lines. I don’t shoot these as accurately as my 6.5, 6mm, or 22 Creedmoor, but I practice A LOT and regularly ring 10-12” steel gongs from hunting shooting positions out past 1,000 yards.

Will you post a video of you shooting a small caliber 30 shots sub moa?

 

[wind gypsy]

Ok if this is true, how is it possible to shoot a big magnum sub moa? Or sub half moa? That’s as good as people are shooting smaller calibers correct? I know for a fact lots of 7mm and 30 cals shoot sub minute. What I’m saying is all things being equal, you can shoot a large cal just as good as a small cal on the first shot. Hurried follow up shots are where you could start seeing a difference.

Shooting MOA groups is much easier from a bench or prone or really any controlled situation where you're addressing the rifle the same way shot to shot. In this scenario, any dispersion impacts from recoil may be similar round to round because you're in a controlled situation building the exact same position shot to shot thus the group stays tight. When in significantly different and more compromised positions, POI is going to shift more in part due to your rifle moving differently under recoil in different positions due to what forces you are imparting on the rifle. Similar to this, but not entirely due to recoil, you'll tend to see larger groups if someone builds a position from scratch for every shot vs staying in position and shooting a group.

This is part of what the kraft drill seeks to diagnose - kraft drill is shooting shots from prone, seating, kneeling, standing (all supported). It's not uncommon to have varying POI from different positions. I tend to have lower POI from the prone occasionally if loading a bipod for example.

Also, i think part of my statement about ALL shooters shooting lower recoil better seemed to get missed The debate is in to what extent. Certainly its possible and likely for external ballistics to outweigh impact in shooter's precision capabilities from increased recoil but its largely situation specific. Until one shoots a bunch and measures the difference in actual field type positions/conditions, it seems pretty hard to know just what the impact is.

 

[Bluefish]

I will watch this when I get a chance. I’m always up for being wrong, just ask my wife based on reading your post, you’re not going to be .0000, regardless of caliber then correct? My main point I was trying to make it initial shot with a small caliber and a large caliber can be equally accurate with good fundamentals and a good rest. Which I still believe.

I think the one thing no one has mentioned is in an 8 lb rifle the force from a 223 and the force from a 300 wm are quite a bit different. Since f=mxa the acceleration has to be bigger for the bigger cartridge. Thus more gun movement. It’s why every discipline of shooting uses the heaviest gun they can stand. It’s the least amount of gun movement.
My target 22 is almost 12 lbs. it’s much bigger and heavier than my hunting rifle. Also is way more accurate. I can say with great certainty that I shoot less recoil better. I have contenders with 358 jdj and the same gun with a 25-35. Recoil of the 25-35 is half the 358. My groups reflect that reduction in recoil. The 25-35 shoots better groups. Same stock, same trigger, same weight, just a different barrel and cartridge.

 

[Article 4]

I think the one thing no one has mentioned is in an 8 lb rifle the force from a 223 and the force from a 300 wm are quite a bit different. Since f=mxa the acceleration has to be bigger for the bigger cartridge. Thus more gun movement. It’s why every discipline of shooting uses the heaviest gun they can stand. It’s the least amount of gun movement.
My target 22 is almost 12 lbs. it’s much bigger and heavier than my hunting rifle. Also is way more accurate. I can say with great certainty that I shoot less recoil better. I have contenders with 358 jdj and the same gun with a 25-35. Recoil of the 25-35 is half the 358. My groups reflect that reduction in recoil. The 25-35 shoots better groups. Same stock, same trigger, same weight, just a different barrel and cartridge.

Yeah the movement math makes sense.

Just gonna throw my 2 cents about why using a heavier hunting rifle can make sense - most of mine completely kitted to hunt are around 12 - 13 lbs.

To me its about eliminating variables. Anal about handloads, anal about rifle set up, anal about all the things that go into pre shot set up - and then last, if I can try to cut the "jump" and recoil by some amount during the shooting cycle with a heavier rifle, I do it.