Is this acceptable for high end rings? And a couple other questions

[ssimo]

I recently bought several sets of rings from a reputable brand, very appreciated on forums. They look good quality. They have an integral level in the base. I opted for that model based on reputation and onnthe fact that the level, placed in the base of the front ring on the left, looked like a good compromise for a 450 yards max hunting rifle. This way i am able to check the level when rarely needed but at the same time the level doesn't stick out too much, keeping the rifle convenient to carry.

I made a test and found out that ALL the 4 rings i have, bought in a 1 year timespawn, have the level.. out of level! It's just a matter of half a degree and i know that, as long as the reticle is plumb to the bubble level, the level being off (and thus the rifle being canted) 0.5 degrees is no big deal, especially for the distances i am shooting at. That said, every one of the level is canted in the same exact direction and everyone is off by 0.5 degrees (i checked with multile levels whit rings mounted and torqued on a high quality integral scope base and using multiple levels i know to be on spot as a reference).

1) how is this possible? For at least 1 year a reputable brand (i will not say the name of the brand because they have been great in assisting me and accorded a full refund) produced defective rings?
2) what do you think about my reasoning about the placement of the level in the base of the ring? I have seem some drawbacks (mostly low visibility on the bubble in low light conditions, level out of focus being very close to my eyes but still visible, until i am young) but i like the fact that the level doesn't stick out

Thanks guys!

 

[TaperPin]

The human eye and hands are surprisingly sensitive. I don’t know that I would want to be intentionally practicing to hold the rifle canted, because then your hold on every rifle would be canted.

(deleted the shimming comment after realizing the bubble is in the ring, not an add on level that clamps to the pic rail)

 

[wapitibob]

Not much chance somebody is standing there tapping on levels to keep them plumb while the glue sets up.

 

[Shortschaf]

1) what @wapitibob said. They are not defective. It is not feasible to make affordable levels all the same and all dead-level to the base like people think. 1/2 a degree is pretty great

2) spin the scope to match

3) I much prefer tube-mounted levels anyway for the reasons you stated

 

[ndlawrence]

Sounds like Zeiss (Tier One)…

 

[ssimo]

1) what @wapitibob said. They are not defective. It is not feasible to make affordable levels all the same and all dead-level to the base like people think. 1/2 a degree is pretty great

2) spin the scope to match

3) I much prefer tube-mounted levels anyway for the reasons you stated

Then it is even worse, it means that the whole process they use to manufacture the ring is faulty with a systematic error
I mean, i have many 5 dollars levels which are perfectly straight.

0.5 degree is not much but it's definitely noticeable and can have a real impact (even if very small) on POI at long ranges. Basically when the rifle is leveled the bubble on the rings is touching one of the two side reference lines

Again, it doesn't seem like space engineering glueing a bubble straight in an expensive ring.

Another thing is that, removing the cap and putting the ring upside down, making it lay on the lower half of the circle of the ring, the level is perfectly good. When the ring is not upside down or when it is mounted, there is a 0.5 degree cant.

Is there anyone here who owns rings with a similar layout with a better working bubble?

 

[Antares]

I think a levels value is in helping to avoid a serious cant, but I don’t expect to have zero cant.

 

[ssimo]

I think a levels value is in helping to avoid a serious cant, but I don’t expect to have zero cant.

I don't expect to have zero cant in hunting situations. Never said that

 

[Watrdawg]

So without checking before hand would you have noticed that half degree? If it were me knowing now that they were off it would drive my OCD crazy. However, there is no way I could tell just by looking at it while shooting.

 

[Shortschaf]

Then it is even worse, it means that the whole process they use to manufacture the ring is faulty with a systematic error
I mean, i have many 5 dollars levels which are perfectly straight.

0.5 degree is not much but it's definitely noticeable and can have a real impact (even if very small) on POI at long ranges. Basically when the rifle is leveled the bubble on the rings is touching one of the two side reference lines

Again, it doesn't seem like space engineering glueing a bubble straight in an expensive ring.

Another thing is that, removing the cap and putting the ring upside down, making it lay on the lower half of the circle of the ring, the level is perfectly good. When the ring is not upside down or when it is mounted, there is a 0.5 degree cant.

Is there anyone here who owns rings with a similar layout with a better working bubble?

These are not the same as a conventional carpenter's level

I'm trying to inform you that your expectations are unrealistic, no matter how simple a bubble level install seems

0.5° would create less than one click of windage error after dialing 10 MILs.
That is still something. And that is why you should level the reticle to the level you have.

 

[ssimo]

So without checking before hand would you have noticed that half degree? If it were me knowing now that they were off it would drive my OCD crazy. However, there is no way I could tell just by looking at it while shooting.

From prone i noticed that the rifle was sitting on the bipod at a very slight angle. Maybe it was a false perception but this made me check the level and find out that every single one of my levels from that brand was slightly off in the same way.

Even if it would impact shooting at long ranges, it would be difficult to know it considering all the other much bigger factors in play. Still i don't want an additional problem to the already very complex equation, especially since i pay good money and i expect good stuff

 

[Laelkhunter]

I'm no expert, but if you have an astigmatism (curvature of the eyeball/cornea/lens), your perception of what you think is level might actually be canted. So, if you look at it and it is actually perfectly level, it's possible your eye could be seeing it as canted?? Maybe an optometrist or ophthalmologist could explain if that's the reason we see it as crooked/canted, when it is actually level??

 

[ssimo]

I'm no expert, but if you have an astigmatism (curvature of the eyeball/cornea/lens), your perception of what you think is level might actually be canted. So, if you look at it and it is actually perfectly level, it's possible your eye could be seeing it as canted?? Maybe an optometrist or ophthalmologist could explain if that's the reason we see it as crooked/canted, when it is actually level??

My eyesight is perfect for now.. and all the other levels look good, only those one are off

 

[ssimo]

These are not the same as a conventional carpenter's level

I'm trying to inform you that your expectations are unrealistic, no matter how simple a bubble level install seems

0.5° would create less than one click of windage error after dialing 10 MILs.
That is still something. And that is why you should level the reticle to the level you have.

1) there is an error related to the rifle being canted in relation to the scope, the problems are not limited to the reticle not being plumb to the ground. This is a very small error but it is still there.
2) if they managed to produce all ring with the exact same cant on the left, how is it possible that they can't manufacture straight ones consistently? Are we joking? 200 dollars for a piece of machined aluminum and you accept that the level is off by 0.5 degrees? Man, take a regular level and cant it 0.5 egrees. the freaking bubble is touching the lines, it's OFF. bubble levels have reference lines exactly to keep the bubble in the center. 0.1 degree is one thing, 0.5 is already significant (also balistically even if only at long distances).

Most people pretending it's normal that a freaking level is off when you buy a 10 dollar one and 99% of the times it is true. Still glued to machined aluminum or steel, very similar manufacturing procedure for sure. The company even offered me a refund for 4 rings but yeah, it's normal guys. The bubble touching the reference line is totally normal. The reference line is there for no reason.

 

[Wrench]

What metric/s are you using to determine level/plumb?

There's a bunch of potential places for tolerance stacking to occur. Base machining, action/bedding and erector are a quick few. A compression recoil lug can be installed out of index and will make a hard time chasing the reason down.

The actual vial is another issue. Stanley and Sterrett both make levels....but if a carpenter had to use a Sterrett.....the house wouldn't be built in 3 years. The Sterrett is about 100x more sensitive.

Now throw in height above bore and you can dive deeper into a rabit hole.

With all of this said, how much windage error are you seeing at 1k to 1500yds?

 

[Shortschaf]

1) there is an error related to the rifle being canted in relation to the scope, the problems are not limited to the reticle not being plumb to the ground. This is a very small error but it is still there.
2) if they managed to produce all ring with the exact same cant on the left, how is it possible that they can't manufacture straight ones consistently? Are we joking? 200 dollars for a piece of machined aluminum and you accept that the level is off by 0.5 degrees? Man, take a regular level and cant it 0.5 egrees. the freaking bubble is touching the lines, it's OFF. bubble levels have reference lines exactly to keep the bubble in the center. 0.1 degree is one thing, 0.5 is already significant (also balistically even if only at long distances).

Most people pretending it's normal that a freaking level is off when you buy a 10 dollar one and 99% of the times it is true. Still glued to machined aluminum or steel, very similar manufacturing procedure for sure. The company even offered me a refund for 4 rings but yeah, it's normal guys. The bubble touching the reference line is totally normal. The reference line is there for no reason.

Realize that for a 1/2" long level, if the hole is oversized by 0.004" it is capable of being off by 0.5°

How did you determine your levels are 0.5° offset?
How are you getting your scope reticle closer than 0.5° relative a bubble level?

Per what @Wrench said above... There is so much room for error here

 

[IdahoBeav]

Speaking from a steel fabrication and manufacturing background, a bubble level is never a precise measuring instrument.

 

[HuntHarder]

My level on my tikka action vs. ring level vs chassis level are all not the same as each other. I chose to get rid of the ring level, ignore the chassis level and just use the level attached to the tikka action.

 

[wind gypsy]

I wouldn't expect anything different with a scope ring, ring base, or chassis level. Mount your scope to match or get a scope tube mounted level.

 

[ssimo]

So you guys think it's normal. I understand. I wonder why they will replace all the rings and even said at the phone that these kind of issues are very rare amd they eill fix it. And i wonder why all the levels are off in the same exact way if it is so difficult to manufacture them for all the tolerances adding up..