Increase in Arrow weight, drop in velocity - Do you think the KE/Momentum/Penetration power equal out in the end?

[Brandon_SPC]

And yet we see TV hunters all the time shooting an elk broadside with nothing but ribs in the way, and there's 15" of the fletching end of the arrow still hanging out of the bull. I think they could have benefitted from a heavier arrow........or a more efficient BH.........or more draw weight......or a combo of any or all three.

Yes a heavier arrow would work but a lot of individuals do not want to shoot heavier arrows. Myself I prefer them but a lot of archers do not like going over the 500 grain threshold. Why? I have no idea. You are right a more efficient BH, a little heavier arrow, or more draw weight would benefit greatly. But let's also address that if we watch these arrow flights from these TV Hunters I guarantee the majority of them will be horrible. Some look like a wet noodle flying through the air, some fish tail bad, and the list goes on. I will also bet the majority do not tune their bow fast the general 6 foot paper tune. I doubt they shoot bareshafts at 40 yards to check the bows tune along with fine tuning form, nock tuning each arrow, I'm sure a lot torque the bow when shooting, and this list also goes on also.

Archers can severely hinder their penetration just by horrible arrow flight alone whether it is an under spinned arrow to a bow that is not tuned.

 

[ndbuck09]

Thanks for all the replies. I think one of the biggest things I was after with this was really how much I should trust the data coming out of the software, which it seems like the takeaway is that guys don't really. Also, I don't have easy access to a real chrono and just left the velocity up to the calculations based on the 30-60 gap so there is that potential errant data point as well. I don't really care about the trajectory change as I made my new sight tape and it wasn't much. I just wanted to get a feel for others sense of the numbers coming from the software. I have shot bareshaft with my setup, electrical tape on the back to compensate for the missing 4 fletch and shoot bullets and with my fletched so that, coupled with being able to shoot a 1.5 inch head at 60 yds with my field points tells me I'm pretty dialed tune wise.

FWIW, I've shot 3 elk the past 4 years with the 425 grain arrow, 2 of which were pass throughs (Slick Trick Viper Trick/no blood trails), 1 quartering away shot was buried deep in the off-shoulder enough that it didn't even back out during the bull's single lung, mile sprint (QAD Exodus). I'm going heavier due to moving to a ethics outsert setup and 125 SilverflameXL's heads, which go back to cut on contact like the viper tricks but a touch more width, and obviously better steel and sharpness. I think last year's Exodus kill was just about to punch through that off shoulder with a smidge more weight to the arrow, which I perhaps may have bumping up 60 grains and a 2 blade cut on contact.

I had always heard about the KE aspect not really being a good number and wanted to also hear that corroborated.

Thanks!

 

[dkime]

Thanks for all the replies. I think one of the biggest things I was after with this was really how much I should trust the data coming out of the software, which it seems like the takeaway is that guys don't really. Also, I don't have easy access to a real chrono and just left the velocity up to the calculations based on the 30-60 gap so there is that potential errant data point as well. I don't really care about the trajectory change as I made my new sight tape and it wasn't much. I just wanted to get a feel for others sense of the numbers coming from the software. I have shot bareshaft with my setup, electrical tape on the back to compensate for the missing 4 fletch and shoot bullets and with my fletched so that, coupled with being able to shoot a 1.5 inch head at 60 yds with my field points tells me I'm pretty dialed tune wise.

FWIW, I've shot 3 elk the past 4 years with the 425 grain arrow, 2 of which were pass throughs (Slick Trick Viper Trick/no blood trails), 1 quartering away shot was buried deep in the off-shoulder enough that it didn't even back out during the bull's single lung, mile sprint (QAD Exodus). I'm going heavier due to moving to a ethics outsert setup and 125 SilverflameXL's heads, which go back to cut on contact like the viper tricks but a touch more width, and obviously better steel and sharpness. I think last year's Exodus kill was just about to punch through that off shoulder with a smidge more weight to the arrow, which I perhaps may have bumping up 60 grains and a 2 blade cut on contact.

I had always heard about the KE aspect not really being a good number and wanted to also hear that corroborated.

Thanks!

No problem man! Tear it up this season and post pics when you’re through with em! Viper tricks are about as legit as it gets


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[Billy Goat]

I just did a quick experiment. Have two hunting bows setup right now. One is a 412 grain arrow shooting 309 fps. Other one is lighter draw weight but shooting a 460 ish grain arrow at 265 fps.

I shot my elk target at 35 yards with my 45 yard pin with both bows. To kinda simulate a situation where you didn't have time to range and you were way off on your estimation. Or maybe the animal moves in on you or whatever. Could have done it on a bag target but the elk gave me a better visual.

309 fps- grouped 7.25" high. Still all kill shots top of the lungs.

265 fps- grouped 12" high. Spine and over. One barely in the target really. Got lucky.

So not very scientific. Not the same bows, not even same draw weights. But just kinda showed me on an animal the difference.

Need to do it again in the inverse. Shoot my 35 yard pin at 45. But was running out of daylight.

 

[dkime]

I just did a quick experiment. Have two hunting bows setup right now. One is a 412 grain arrow shooting 309 fps. Other one is lighter draw weight but shooting a 460 ish grain arrow at 265 fps.

I shot my elk target at 35 yards with my 45 yard pin with both bows. To kinda simulate a situation where you didn't have time to range and you were way off on your estimation. Or maybe the animal moves in on you or whatever. Could have done it on a bag target but the elk gave me a better visual.

309 fps- grouped 7.25" high. Still all kill shots top of the lungs.

265 fps- grouped 12" high. Spine and over. One barely in the target really. Got lucky.

So not very scientific. Not the same bows, not even same draw weights. But just kinda showed me on an animal the difference.

Need to do it again in the inverse. Shoot my 35 yard pin at 45. But was running out of daylight.

What was the max and min spread of these groups? Right now you’re 4.75 center to center, when I’m kicking ass at 40 I’ll shoot 1” 5 arrow groups but most days it’s double that which if applied to your groups would make the worst case scenario a 8.75” spread or best case a .75” spread. That’s how I normally rationalize my yardage FWiw


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[Billy Goat]

What was the max and min spread of these groups? Right now you’re 4.75 center to center, when I’m kicking ass at 40 I’ll shoot 1” 5 arrow groups but most days it’s double that which if applied to your groups would make the worst case scenario a 8.75” spread or best case a .75” spread. That’s how I normally rationalize my yardage FWiw


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Yeah. So those groups were interesting. I had been shooting several different bows through the Chrono just beforehand. I was rushing and didn't shoot great groups, but the vertical spread was less than a 3/4 inch. They were wide. Like 4"+ left to right on the 309 fps, but that bow I normally have more weight with a quiver on the side than how I was shooting it, the 265 had back bar on it and I have been shooting it more. I think the angle I was to the sun and it was going down was changing the halo I saw through my peep. I have had that alter my left right impact before. I was in woods so the light comes through in streaks, things can change pretty quickly as the sun is going down.

But I felt like it was a pretty accurate elevation assessment.

 

[Beendare]

OK, so you were using software...I must have missed that.

The software takes a given factor and extrapolates it across the board. This doesn't account for the increased energy imparted to a heavier arrow. I think some of the software programs have improved putting in a factor now for that increased absorption of energy....but still a guess.

Good tuning skills OP...that and Good Form are the 2 biggest factors in perfect arrows. These primary factors RULE..