Importance of bullet weight - 6.5 PRC

[ATRaz15]

I am at a bit of a crossroads with my 6.5 PRC load. Into my second season with my 24" Seekins Precision Havak PH2, I have been shooting the Hornandy 143gr ELD-X factory ammo and have taken two antelope and an elk with it now. At this point, I haven't been real happy with the way that the bullet preformed. On targets they shoot phenomenally through my gun, however on all three animals there has been quite a bit of meat damage without much for visible energy transfer/knockdown power. I'm thinking that I'll try switching loads after this hunting season ends and I'm hoping to use it as an opportunity to cook up a hand load for this gun. My father-in-law has been having some issues with his load as well (Nosler ballistic tip projectile) so it sounds like I'll have someone to go out to the range with to test. His problem has been excessive fragmentation, causing gut punctures on 3 antelope between this year and last year. Anyways...

One of my coworkers was really singing the praise of the Nosler Accubond bullets that he uses in his hand loads and after doing some more research, I think that's the next place I will look. At this point I've been having some trouble finding decent answers on two specific questions:

1) Nosler Accubond vs Accubond LR. What is the performance difference going to be? I know that the LR has a higher BC and is designed to retain energy and velocity out to longer ranges, but how will it do on close shots? Will it's lower minimum expansion velocity make it perform more like a cup and core bullet at close ranges? I keep most of my shots on big game animals within 500 yards. I know I wont really be able to get the full benefits of the LR's design, but I'm mainly interested in the heavier bullet weight offerings - which brings me to my next/main question...

2) How important is bullet weight going to be in a 6.5 PRC? The Accubond LR offers a 150 grain projectile whereas the Accubond just has up to 140 grain (that I have seen). This thinking might be antiquated with a modern cartridge like the PRC, but I'm a little more comfortable with the idea of a 150 grain projectile than a 140 when it comes to taking shots at elk. Can I gain any appreciable amount of punch with a hot 150 grain load over 140 grain? Or am I getting lost in the weeds here?

TIA!

 

[wapitibob]

"His problem has been excessive fragmentation, causing gut punctures on 3 antelope between this year and last year."
The ballistic tip was originally designed as a grenade for varmint hunting. They allegedly modified the jacket and said it was now a hunting bullet. As you heard, they blow stuff up bad.

I believe in heavy frangible, light solids, and mid range bonded bullets. My 195 berger (7stw) was under the offside hide on this years elk after going thru liver, lungs, and the scapula (quartered away at 385). I've also shot Antelope and Deer with that 195, golf ball size exit on both, no excess damage (several inches behind the crease).

As to the 6.5 and ELD's, this may be helpful, or not.

Hornady ELDM vs ELDX (bullet construction and terminal behavior)

It seems like this is always a common debate and topic. So I wanted to make my own thread on the matter, showing the comparisons between the Hornady ELDX and ELDM. They’re not the same and are actually both improvements on two other Hornady bullets. The ELDX is simply just an improved SST and...

www.longrangeonly.com

 

[Plainsman79]

The pic is from this year’s bullet performance on a bull elk. A 140 AB went through 1 shoulder and lodged in the opposite side hide. The bull retained every ounce of energy and never took a step, dropped dead. Shot distance was 339 yards. The bullet retained 67% of its weight. If I remember correctly my MV is right around 2,950FPS. This is coming out of a CA Ridgeline.

I’ll use both 140 Bergers and 140 AB’s for deer and they are both incredibly deadly. When I use my PRC for elk I’ll exclusively use the bonded nosler.

In all reality, you’re basically shooting a super-charged .270 out to about 500 yards. Then the PRC steadily pulls ahead. The .270 has probably killed more deer /elk nationwide than any other cartridge.

 

[freezerfull]

I believe in heavy frangible, light solids, and mid range bonded

OP -
I second what Bob states above. Max range is what is important, this will drive your choice between the above options.

Since you stated meat damage had been a past concern. if your hunting 500 yards and in with the PRC I’d recommend picking the standard 140 AB. If you want mono the 127 LRX would be a good option as well.

If your thinking potentially longer ranges then I’d recommend sticking with the heavy frangibles (156 Berger, 147 eldm, maybe even the 140 VLD) for their effect at lower impact velocity. You’ll just have to understand that more meat damage and bullet fragments likely will result.

Regarding the ABLR, I have limited experience but from trusted first hand accounts it behaves much more like a ELDm or BT than a standard AB.

 

[sveltri]

Admittedly I didn't read every post, but have you considered the Berger 156?

 

[mtnbound]

I am at a bit of a crossroads with my 6.5 PRC load. Into my second season with my 24" Seekins Precision Havak PH2, I have been shooting the Hornandy 143gr ELD-X factory ammo and have taken two antelope and an elk with it now. At this point, I haven't been real happy with the way that the bullet preformed. On targets they shoot phenomenally through my gun, however on all three animals there has been quite a bit of meat damage without much for visible energy transfer/knockdown power. I'm thinking that I'll try switching loads after this hunting season ends and I'm hoping to use it as an opportunity to cook up a hand load for this gun. My father-in-law has been having some issues with his load as well (Nosler ballistic tip projectile) so it sounds like I'll have someone to go out to the range with to test. His problem has been excessive fragmentation, causing gut punctures on 3 antelope between this year and last year. Anyways...

One of my coworkers was really singing the praise of the Nosler Accubond bullets that he uses in his hand loads and after doing some more research, I think that's the next place I will look. At this point I've been having some trouble finding decent answers on two specific questions:

1) Nosler Accubond vs Accubond LR. What is the performance difference going to be? I know that the LR has a higher BC and is designed to retain energy and velocity out to longer ranges, but how will it do on close shots? Will it's lower minimum expansion velocity make it perform more like a cup and core bullet at close ranges? I keep most of my shots on big game animals within 500 yards. I know I wont really be able to get the full benefits of the LR's design, but I'm mainly interested in the heavier bullet weight offerings - which brings me to my next/main question...

2) How important is bullet weight going to be in a 6.5 PRC? The Accubond LR offers a 150 grain projectile whereas the Accubond just has up to 140 grain (that I have seen). This thinking might be antiquated with a modern cartridge like the PRC, but I'm a little more comfortable with the idea of a 150 grain projectile than a 140 when it comes to taking shots at elk. Can I gain any appreciable amount of punch with a hot 150 grain load over 140 grain? Or am I getting lost in the weeds here?

TIA!

Have your shots with the ELDXs been behind the shoulder or on the shoulder. I have not seen excessive meat loss unless I hit a large bone. If you are a high shoulder shooter then I would recommend a different bullet.
I have had seen some inconsistencies with the AB’s both regular and LR in terms of weight. I would weight them and match them accordingly.
At your 500 yard limit so long as your impact velocity is above the manufacturers expansion limit, I would go with any bonded bullet that your barrel likes best. No experience with them yet but Swift Sciroccos were recommended to me for reducing meat loss.

 

[SloppyJ]

You need to decide what your goals are first. Do you want massive damage with the opprotunity for the quickest kill or are you looking for less damage, more weight retention, and a pass through?

If you're 500yds and in, go with a partition and call it a day. This will provide the best of both worlds. Place your shots correctly to avoid meat damage and enjoy one of the best bullets out there.

If not, go for full meat preservation mode and use a copper projectile. Just make sure you're boots are solid because you will not cause as much internal damage.

 

[CJ_BG]

I'm a bit confused, there's too much meat damage but not enough energy transfer? What are you looking for when you say "visible energy transfer/knockdown power"? What does that look like inside of an animal?

 

[mtnbound]

You need to decide what your goals are first. Do you want massive damage with the opprotunity for the quickest kill or are you looking for less damage, more weight retention, and a pass through?

If you're 500yds and in, go with a partition and call it a day. This will provide the best of both worlds. Place your shots correctly to avoid meat damage and enjoy one of the best bullets out there.

If not, go for full meat preservation mode and use a copper projectile. Just make sure you're boots are solid because you will not cause as much internal damage.

Learning reloading from my dad, I didn't even know there were any other bullets besides a Partition for countless years.

 

[ATRaz15]

"His problem has been excessive fragmentation, causing gut punctures on 3 antelope between this year and last year."
The ballistic tip was originally designed as a grenade for varmint hunting. They allegedly modified the jacket and said it was now a hunting bullet. As you heard, they blow stuff up bad.

I believe in heavy frangible, light solids, and mid range bonded bullets. My 195 berger (7stw) was under the offside hide on this years elk after going thru liver, lungs, and the scapula (quartered away at 385). I've also shot Antelope and Deer with that 195, golf ball size exit on both, no excess damage (several inches behind the crease).

As to the 6.5 and ELD's, this may be helpful, or not.

Hornady ELDM vs ELDX (bullet construction and terminal behavior)

It seems like this is always a common debate and topic. So I wanted to make my own thread on the matter, showing the comparisons between the Hornady ELDX and ELDM. They’re not the same and are actually both improvements on two other Hornady bullets. The ELDX is simply just an improved SST and...

www.longrangeonly.com

Makes sense, thanks for the info! I skimmed through that thread and it has been really helpful! I'll definitely have to give it a closer look!

The pic is from this year’s bullet performance on a bull elk. A 140 AB went through 1 shoulder and lodged in the opposite side hide. The bull retained every ounce of energy and never took a step, dropped dead. Shot distance was 339 yards. The bullet retained 67% of its weight. If I remember correctly my MV is right around 2,950FPS. This is coming out of a CA Ridgeline.

I’ll use both 140 Bergers and 140 AB’s for deer and they are both incredibly deadly. When I use my PRC for elk I’ll exclusively use the bonded nosler.

In all reality, you’re basically shooting a super-charged .270 out to about 500 yards. Then the PRC steadily pulls ahead. The .270 has probably killed more deer /elk nationwide than any other cartridge.

Good deal! I have heard that about the .270/6.5 comparison. My other rifle was a 30-06, so kind of a different can of worms than any of the 6.5mm (and adjacent) cartridges.

 

[ATRaz15]

OP -
I second what Bob states above. Max range is what is important, this will drive your choice between the above options.

Since you stated meat damage had been a past concern. if your hunting 500 yards and in with the PRC I’d recommend picking the standard 140 AB. If you want mono the 127 LRX would be a good option as well.

If your thinking potentially longer ranges then I’d recommend sticking with the heavy frangibles (156 Berger, 147 eldm, maybe even the 140 VLD) for their effect at lower impact velocity. You’ll just have to understand that more meat damage and bullet fragments likely will result.

Regarding the ABLR, I have limited experience but from trusted first hand accounts it behaves much more like a ELDm or BT than a standard AB.

noted about the ABLR. I have been reading accounts that say that they are softer which can result in more fragmentation at closer range/higher velocity. 500 isn't my hard line, but for me the stalk and setup is as much fun as the shooting. If I want to ring steel at longer ranges, there's a gun range nearby where I can go scratch that itch. Thee exception to that would be coyotes though.

With the ranges that I'll be taking shots at big game though, sounds like there's not much point in looking at the ABLR or some of those heavier frangible bullets...

 

[ATRaz15]

Admittedly I didn't read every post, but have you considered the Berger 156?

I haven't but from what I've been told the Berger bullets are intended to do one thing - explode on impact. Admittedly I haven't done much of any research into them, but when I have explained my goals most people have pointed me towards Nosler, with a couple even going so far as to tell me to steer clear of Berger.

Have your shots with the ELDXs been behind the shoulder or on the shoulder. I have not seen excessive meat loss unless I hit a large bone. If you are a high shoulder shooter then I would recommend a different bullet.
I have had seen some inconsistencies with the AB’s both regular and LR in terms of weight. I would weight them and match them accordingly.
At your 500 yard limit so long as your impact velocity is above the manufacturers expansion limit, I would go with any bonded bullet that your barrel likes best. No experience with them yet but Swift Sciroccos were recommended to me for reducing meat loss.

One of the antelope was through the shoulder, the other two animals were just behind the shoulder through the ribcage/lungs. The shoulder shot on the antelope just about obliterated that quarter, but just the meat was chewed up. The bone seemed to have a relatively clean hole punched through. Still some bone fragments for sure, but I was mainly surprised by how little bone damage there was compared to how much meat damage there was. Lost at least a good 45% of the meat on that shoulder. The other two shots were close enough behind the shoulder that the fragmentation on initial impact chewed up some meat, but not as much as the direct hit on the shoulder.

As far as my qualms with the energy transfer, none of the shots made any of them flinch until they tipped over. I honestly thought I had missed with the first animal I took with the rifle, until the herd was making tracks and he fell behind and eventually went down. Just seemed like the bullet dissipated all it's energy into fragmentation without much "punch" for lack of a better term. I don't mind using a round that won't drop an animal instantly if I know to expect it, but I also would expect less meat loss with a bullet that behaves like that.

 

[ATRaz15]

I'm a bit confused, there's too much meat damage but not enough energy transfer? What are you looking for when you say "visible energy transfer/knockdown power"? What does that look like inside of an animal?

Seemed like the bullets just fragmented excessively on impact, without much for knockdown power. saw lots of meat damage right at the point of impact, while the retained mass passed through the vitals pretty cleanly and didn't chew them up much. Not sure if that makes sense but hope it answers your question!

 

[ATRaz15]

Learning reloading from my dad, I didn't even know there were any other bullets besides a Partition for countless years.

You need to decide what your goals are first. Do you want massive damage with the opprotunity for the quickest kill or are you looking for less damage, more weight retention, and a pass through?

If you're 500yds and in, go with a partition and call it a day. This will provide the best of both worlds. Place your shots correctly to avoid meat damage and enjoy one of the best bullets out there.

If not, go for full meat preservation mode and use a copper projectile. Just make sure you're boots are solid because you will not cause as much internal damage.

I have heard lots of people recommend the partition as well, but from my understanding the less aerodynamic design kind of negates the benefits of the 6.5 PRC as far as flatter shooting characteristics and retained velocity/energy at longer ranges. If I was working on something for my 30-06 I'd definitely be looking at the partition more, but i was told that it may nit be the best fit for a 6.5. Am I off base here or is that pretty accurate?

Also as a disclaimer, I haven't done a ton of looking into the partition, but I've kind of taken the recommendations of people I've talked to (family, coworkers, people at the local sporting goods store) and gone down those rabbit holes.

If I'm going through the time/effort of building a load for this gun, I'd like to be able to keep some of the long range characteristics and benefits of the 6.5 PRC if I can. Yes, I try to keep big game shots within 500 yards, but on targets and predators I'd like to still be able to stretch out to 750, 800+ yards.

Maybe I'm looking for too much of a goldilocks bullet?

 

[wapitibob]

The reason for the heavy frangibles is to negate excessive fragmentation. Light for caliber solids, to enhance mushroom and bullet disruption.
I try to stay several inches behind the crease if I need to take a broadside shot but prefer a head on shot no matter which bullet is used.

This is a Deer heart with a solid 143 Hammer, going 3470 ish.

 

[freezerfull]

I have heard lots of people recommend the partition as well, but from my understanding the less aerodynamic design kind of negates the benefits of the 6.5 PRC as far as flatter shooting characteristics and retained velocity/energy at longer ranges. If I was working on something for my 30-06 I'd definitely be looking at the partition more, but i was told that it may nit be the best fit for a 6.5. Am I off base here or is that pretty accurate?

Also as a disclaimer, I haven't done a ton of looking into the partition, but I've kind of taken the recommendations of people I've talked to (family, coworkers, people at the local sporting goods store) and gone down those rabbit holes.

If I'm going through the time/effort of building a load for this gun, I'd like to be able to keep some of the long range characteristics and benefits of the 6.5 PRC if I can. Yes, I try to keep big game shots within 500 yards, but on targets and predators I'd like to still be able to stretch out to 750, 800+ yards.

Maybe I'm looking for too much of a goldilocks bullet?

I think it has been mentioned in this thread. IME Noslers consistency between lots is much looser than say Berger. This won’t be appreciable shooting this cartridge to 500 yards if you watch ogive location and seating depth. IMO Nosler is way too proud of their products these days. The AB and partition are great bullets but because of their prices I only really use Nosler as a primary load in one cartridge. Honestly $30/100 interlocks kill stuff just fine at 500 yards.

This is what I would do. If I plan to shoot rocks and steel to 1000+ and hunt out to whatever distance my capabilities and conditions determine with a 6.5 PRC. I’d start with the 156 Berger. If it won’t shoot, next I’d try a 140 VLD. That’s me though and I don’t find the damage too excessive.

What you do is up to you, depending on your meat damage concerns and if you’re willing to establish a hard limit for distance. If these outweigh a flexible outer limit for hunting and a better long range target experience, then the AB or a mono may be the best for you. Without looking at the numbers I would think the 6.5 prc could drive those well into the 600’s and still have them preform decently.

 

[Castle Rock]

I haven't but from what I've been told the Berger bullets are intended to do one thing - explode on impact. Admittedly I haven't done much of any research into them, but when I have explained my goals most people have pointed me towards Nosler, with a couple even going so far as to tell me to steer clear of Berger.

The person or people who told you that were wrong.
The Berger hunting bullets usually give a few inches of narrow wound channel then expand as designed.

The most effective bullet in my 6.5 PRC is the 147 ELDM , but I would just as happily use a 140 Berger.

 

[SloppyJ]

Learning reloading from my dad, I didn't even know there were any other bullets besides a Partition for countless years.

Your dad is a man of class. If you dont need the BC, they cant be beat. The OP doesnt quite understand the benefit of driving it a little faster to make up for that or that out to 500, he doesnt need the BC.

 

[ATRaz15]

The person or people who told you that were wrong.
The Berger hunting bullets usually give a few inches of narrow wound channel then expand as designed.

The most effective bullet in my 6.5 PRC is the 147 ELDM , but I would just as happily use a 140 Berger.

Noted, thanks! As I said in the original post, my wife's dad has had issues with gut punctures when his Nosler ballistic tip hit a rib on an antelope. Safe to say that a 156 gr Berger risks doing the same thing? Or should it punch through decently before expanding? I'd assume it would expand sooner either way if it hit a rib on the way in.

I understand that absent of hitting bone, they will typically wait a few inches before expanding. However an antelope doesn't exactly have thick ribs and I'd ideally like to find something that can punch through the rib on something as light as an antelope.

I think it has been mentioned in this thread. IME Noslers consistency between lots is much looser than say Berger. This won’t be appreciable shooting this cartridge to 500 yards if you watch ogive location and seating depth. IMO Nosler is way too proud of their products these days. The AB and partition are great bullets but because of their prices I only really use Nosler as a primary load in one cartridge. Honestly $30/100 interlocks kill stuff just fine at 500 yards.

This is what I would do. If I plan to shoot rocks and steel to 1000+ and hunt out to whatever distance my capabilities and conditions determine with a 6.5 PRC. I’d start with the 156 Berger. If it won’t shoot, next I’d try a 140 VLD. That’s me though and I don’t find the damage too excessive.

What you do is up to you, depending on your meat damage concerns and if you’re willing to establish a hard limit for distance. If these outweigh a flexible outer limit for hunting and a better long range target experience, then the AB or a mono may be the best for you. Without looking at the numbers I would think the 6.5 prc could drive those well into the 600’s and still have them preform decently.

Thanks for the input! I have read that unbonded bullets are also a little easier to make accurately than bonded bullets, mainly because of the metallurgy involved in making the latter. Is this accurate or is it more dependent on the QC of a given manufacturer? With that said, my longer range shots are few and far between. I'd like to get more competent shooting over 600 yards, but if I'm totally honest with myself it'll be a while before I'm able to really devote the time to it that I'll need to. It's fun being able to nail coyotes out further, but some of the fun is being able to call them in anyways.

Honestly right now I'm hunting as much for the meat as anything else. Maybe in a few years I'll be thinking differently but with beef prices where they are I'm as concerned about meat in the freezer as I am anything else. That's mainly where my concerns on damaging too much meat are coming from.

With all this said though, the 156 gr Berger EH bullets are $0.27 less per bullet than the 140gr Accubonds and almost half the price of the 140 gr Partitions ($1.24 vs $0.63). For that price the Bergers are definitely worth giving a look.

Well guess I am going to be taking a closer look at the Bergers.

 

[UnckleBob]

You could try Federal's Tipped Fusion bullet. They have a Regular Fusion load and a 130g Terminal Ascent load. All of those bullets are tougher than the EldX.

As you can see from the attached charts, the Federal Tipped Fusion load doesn't drop that much more than Hornady's Precision Hunter load at 400 yards.