If you think being a “thoughtful” hunter will prevent this in the US, think again...

[IdahoElk]

I agree with this from a common sense point of view, but I’m currently at the point of telling anyone, who doesn’t like what I do in my life, to eat shit and choke on it!! I’ve had enough of the next persons opinions. I would love to have rational conversations where two or more people reach an understanding of each other’s points of view, but we are clearly heading far from that sort of communication. I don’t post my personal business or photos strictly because I don’t want the next assholes opinion on it. Much to your point Idahoelk. IMG_9198.jpg

I agree 100% but have given up after numerous interactions in my mountain town over Elk and Deer hunting, can’t even imagine what would happen trying to defend hunting in Africa.

 

[Rob5589]

I agree with this from a common sense point of view, but I’m currently at the point of telling anyone, who doesn’t like what I do in my life, to eat shit and choke on it!! I’ve had enough of the next persons opinions. I would love to have rational conversations where two or more people reach an understanding of each other’s points of view, but we are clearly heading far from that sort of communication. I don’t post my personal business or photos strictly because I don’t want the next assholes opinion on it. Much to your point Idahoelk. IMG_9198.jpg

What it comes down to; anti hunters abhor hunting and hunters. Africa, USA, Canada, doesn't matter. Not posting pics, using "harvest" instead of "kill," having to justify why you hunt, etc. None of it matters because there isn't a damn thing you can say or do to change their mindset.

 

[Akwoodchuck]

On the flip side, I've conversed with SCI guys who would be willing to put even critically endangered species hunts up for auction, if it would help the organization....also quite a few that would like to see predators such as wolves and bears eradicated, in hopes it will increase their odds of bagging a trophy bull or buck. In short, while anti-hunters are certainly awful, so are many trophy hunters....

 

[bayoublaster7527]

What it comes down to; anti hunters abhor hunting and hunters. Africa, USA, Canada, doesn't matter. Not posting pics, using "harvest" instead of "kill," having to justify why you hunt, etc. None of it matters because there isn't a damn thing you can say or do to change their mindset.

Agree. The antis have a clear goal in mind, effectively outlaw all types of hunting. Their strategy is to take away hunting one small bite at a time, whittling it away seasons/species and methods of take over decades. The anti hunting activists are also in the minority, but they will continue to mobilize their significant financial and legal resources to convince the middle of the road, non-hunting majority to vote in their favor, see ballot initiatives. I know people aren’t crazy about SCI due to the Africa stuff but they seem to be the one major organization specifically defending hunters and the future of hunting, lots of other great orgs focused on public lands and wildlife conservation.

 

[ODB]

Hunters are the minority. So it isnt shocking the majority dollars spent is on the anti hunting front. We won't out cash them. So how about we out class them. Dont make it easy folks.

Understand I’m using this next example as just that - an example...

Hunters at 5% are still a greater percentage in the US than that of the LGBT community at about 4.25%. Gallup polls consistently show that Americans perceive the LGBT community to be closer to 20-22%.

the problem isn’t that we are a minority - the problem is that we are simply not represented positively anywhere but our own circles. The perception of hunters as anything but morons is hard to come by in any media other than that generated by hunters. And if you count Instagram, not even there.

 

[full choke]

Understand I’m using this next example as just that - an example...

Hunters at 5% are still a greater percentage in the US than that of the LGBT community at about 4.25%. Gallup polls consistently show that Americans perceive the LGBT community to be closer to 20-22%.

the problem isn’t that we are a minority - the problem is that we are simply not represented positively anywhere but our own circles. The perception of hunters as anything but morons is hard to come by in any media other than that generated by hunters. And if you count Instagram, not even there.

I blame barrel stickers...

 

[TXCO]

It doesnt matter that its Africa. Look at Grizzly bans in BC, polar bear hide import bans from Canada, California mountian lion hide bans, Blue state trophy import bans, continued wolf intros, and lawsuits blocking legal wyoming grizzly hunts. These people wont stop and its two battles, the actual courts where SCI, Sportman Alliance and others fight and the court of public opinion on social media. Both are messy and it cant be written off just because its in a different country. People will ask how can you smile next to an elk or bison or cuddly moose that always stands still for picture in a national park....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TXCO]

It doesnt matter that its Africa. Look at Grizzly bans in BC, polar bear hide import bans from Canada, California mountian lion hide bans, Blue state trophy import bans, continued wolf intros, and lawsuits blocking legal wyoming grizzly hunts. These people wont stop and its two battles, the actual courts where SCI, Sportman Alliance and others fight and the court of public opinion on social media. Both are messy and it cant be written off just because its in a different country. People will ask how can you smile next to an elk or bison or cuddly moose that always stands still for picture in a national park....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ODB]

It doesnt matter that its Africa. Look at Grizzly bans in BC, polar bear hide import bans from Canada, California mountian lion hide bans, Blue state trophy import bans, continued wolf intros, and lawsuits blocking legal wyoming grizzly hunts. These people wont stop and its two battles, the actual courts where SCI, Sportman Alliance and others fight and the court of public opinion on social media. Both are messy and it cant be written off just because its in a different country. People will ask how can you smile next to an elk or bison or cuddly moose that always stands still for picture in a national park....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The answer is: the same way you, your kids, and 96.6% of America do when you eat a hamburger.

Do do do do doooo...I’m lovin it!

When I’ve been asked about it by people who dont understand hunting, I’ve said things like, “would you trust more a hamburger I made from deer I killed or the one you got from the store made from a feedlot cow, killed, ground, and handled by a dozen people you don’t know?”

when they ask about the smile, the answer goes something like, “don’t you smile when you accomplish something that takes a great deal of effort to do correctly?”

 

[TXCO]

The answer is: the same way you, your kids, and 96.6% of America do when you eat a hamburger.

Do do do do doooo...I’m lovin it!

When I’ve been asked about it by people who dont understand hunting, I’ve said things like, “would you trust more a hamburger I made from deer I killed or the one you got from the store made from a feedlot cow, killed, ground, and handled by a dozen people you don’t know?”

when they ask about the smile, the answer goes something like, “don’t you smile when you accomplish something that takes a great deal of effort to do correctly?”

I agree with you 100%. It still doesnt stop the anti's from using everything they can to sway public opinion.

Thats probably the biggest misconception/issue, its we need to convince the middle 50-70% of the voters/people, not the hard antis. I actually think the organic food movement and get outdoors during the quarantine is helping that, minus the crowded trail heads....

 

[Poser]

If we follow the logic and implication of the title of this post, then it is the Hunter with the lack of thought that will save us.

 

[ODB]

If we follow the logic and implication of the title of this post, then it is the Hunter with the lack of thought that will save us.

Wrong. You are missing the Ben O’Brien- approved nuance here...

The reason thoughtful is in quotes is because it engages something that is happening in many conversations these days - that if we just approach the topic and the person we are talking to in a “thoughtful” way, we can educate/convince them our position is valid. Go listen to the Meateater podcast with Karl Malcolm and you’ll hear this phrase about a dozen times. He seems to think erudition will solve everything


what this position fails to understand is that the vast majority of people do not make a decision on a subject based on how thoughtful the other person is being. Do you? No.


you can be as thoughtful as you want to be, but if a person has it in for you because you kill animals, their answer will always be “it’s wrong to kill innocent animals for fun.” No amount of kindness or evidence will change their minds. Because, in point of fact, their minds are unchangeable.

Jonathan Haidt delves into why people believe what they believe; the hierarchical suite of factors that determine how we think about things. Thoughtfulness doesn’t make the list...

 

[hibernation]

People will ask how can you smile next to an elk or bison or cuddly moose

I live around and work with lots of non-hunters, and if they're genuinely interested in having a conversation, I explain it this way. From their perspective, pretty much all they see of hunting is the "grip and grin" pics. And I get it, that can be a little jarring. They see it and it represents the entire hunt: dead animal, smiling dude.

A hunter sees that photo and inherently understands that you might've been out there for days, reading tracks and sign, learning the landscape, and stalking that animal all morning. There's the uncertainty after the shot, maybe having to follow a blood trail, and then the relief and pride that come with making a good shot and everything going well. You know how much work is ahead of you field dressing, packing, butchering, but right now you're just relieved and content that you did it. So you snap a quick photo and get back to work. It's a snapshot that represents the entire experience.

Point is, we've got a PR problem and in my experience, we can gain support by being respectful and patient. It's wild the misconceptions that people often have. I've talked to so many people who talk shit about "trophy hunters", only to find out, they didn't realize people ate buck deer and bull elk (or that wasting game meat in the field is already illegal). They really thought those antler photos are where the hunt ended. I even had to explain to someone that tags and seasons exist - he honestly thought we just shot any animal we wanted, any time of year.

 

[ODB]

We sure do. Instead of the Ritz crackers commercial last night that showed a dude putting on lipstick to go visit his partners family, I’m much prefer one that shows a family setting up a duck blind, watching the sun rise, seeing flights of ducks come in, smiling faces, family walking out of blind with kids holding dead ducks, family cooking in kitchen, then family sitting down to a meal of duck.

Let the scenes do the talking with maybe a short tag line at the end or something. This brought to you by the NSSF.

Doesn’t have to be over the top, but just there - telling the story from our side.

 

[hibernation]

I’m much prefer one that shows a family setting up a duck blind, watching the sun rise, seeing flights of ducks come in, sm faces, family walking out of blind with kids holding dead ducks, family cooking in kitchen, then family sitting down to a meal of duck

Since Meateater was mentioned earlier, I think Rinella's done a great job (along with others like Randy Newberg, and maybe Hank Shaw) of what you're describing. Showing the hunting experience outside of the kill itself in a way that nonhunters find interesting and relatable. If you broke down the viewership, I'd be really interested how many people watch meateater with no experience or intention of ever hunting.

Hunting shows used to have rules about not showing blood/butchering/etc with the intention of not offending the general public. I think that backfired spectacularly, and the media that's having the best success (and I think our best PR) is the stuff that treats it respectfully but doesn't shy away from it.

 

[Poser]

Wrong. You are missing the Ben O’Brien- approved nuance here...

The reason thoughtful is in quotes is because it engages something that is happening in many conversations these days - that if we just approach the topic and the person we are talking to in a “thoughtful” way, we can educate/convince them our position is valid. Go listen to the Meateater podcast with Karl Malcolm and you’ll hear this phrase about a dozen times. He seems to think erudition will solve everything


what this position fails to understand is that the vast majority of people do not make a decision on a subject based on how thoughtful the other person is being. Do you? No.


you can be as thoughtful as you want to be, but if a person has it in for you because you kill animals, their answer will always be “it’s wrong to kill innocent animals for fun.” No amount of kindness or evidence will change their minds. Because, in point of fact, their minds are unchangeable.

Jonathan Haidt delves into why people believe what they believe; the hierarchical suite of factors that determine how we think about things. Thoughtfulness doesn’t make the list...

Nothing applies across the board, but demonstrating a level of philosophical depth when confronted forces the confronter to either match your level of reason and, if they do, usually results in common ground, or a position solely based on emotion. Point being, we can’t as a society dismiss reason, logic and thought as the foundation of criticism. Set a standard there and maintain it. As opposed to what? Personal attacks and emotion?

As I am understanding the use of the word “thoughtful”, it implies that a person has carefully considered all positions associated with a subject matter, has drawn conclusions based on that thought and can hold a tenable position when confronted. “Thoughtful” is not the result, rather it is the impetus. “Thoughtful” merely means that one thinks, can engage with reason and isn’t emotionally threatened by contrary positions. A thoughtful hunter is merely a thoughtful person who happens to hunt.

 

[ODB]

Right...the problem is some are trying to out “thoughtful” people who are not engaging on that level at all. They ARE dismissing reason and logic and relying solely on the personal attacks and emotion you recognize as a negative thing.

Thoughtfulness, or a fuller understanding or explanation, of hunting has zero impact on people in my original post.

Which, again, is why I would like orgs who so fervently preach the public lands doctrine to do the same for the hunters who have been the financial backbone of the org itself.

 

[WCB]

I think it’s awful what happens today with hunters but if you post a picture on the internet standing next to dead elephant, giraffe, wolf or penguin with a smile on your face and a gun in your hand you’re going to lose a lot that’s dear to you.
I in no way think its fair but you’re never going to change societies view so why post the pictures?

Your stated specifically "...you deserve what comes next." No you don't "deserve" it. Maybe don't be too surprised by the back lash but "deserve" get out of here with that mentality.

 

[zion zig zag]

They'll keep pumping out the same crap until everyone is brainwashed into believing hunting or fishing anywhere for anything is as bad as raping a child. Oh walt nevermind they want to normalize that

Get out of here with that Qanon b*llsh*t. We're discussing hunting rights not your twisted political fantasies.

 

[ttucci16]

80 percent of the public supports hunting. 76 percent of non-hunters support hunting. Anti-Hunters are in the minority by a pretty dang big amount. I think people put way too much thought into anti-hunters having much of an impact on the hunting public. Hunting will die due to the hunting community absolutely sucking at promoting ethical hunting, and really sucking at outreach. Only 37 percent of people support "Trophy" hunting. Steve Rinella is without a doubt the best example of someone showing and explaining the experience and reverance of hunting. You don't see him jumping up and slapping everyone on the back after shooting a deer from 800 yards. Get all of the outdoor channels and major magazines to stop talking about antlers, and start talking about the experience and we will be fine. Ultimately the hunting community is at the mercy of the non-hunters who still support hunting, so therefore you have to cater to them with logic and be better at showing and explaining the nuances of hunting.