I found out some Shocking info about where Californias Deer Population may have gone

[WV Mountaineer]

If he's not seeing any deer and thinks that the population is in bad shape, why did he shoot one?

He shot a buck. That affects the herd by a net of one. Nobody is preaching deer horns here. Only deer numbers

 

[ceng]

In response to wapiti66 the issue isn’t a loss of “forest acres” the problem is that much of the forest is also barren. Clearcuts used to be a smorgasbord for deer in a sort of food dessert. The loss is really the clearcut, what used to be a productive habitat break and sort of food plot spread throughout much less productive timber is now barren. Not of trees, but of the Forbes and things that used to grow in them traditionally.

 

[N2TRKYS]

He shot a buck. That affects the herd by a net of one. Nobody is preaching deer horns here. Only deer numbers

I'm not preaching deer antlers, either. I'm talking deer numbers, as well.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

In response to wapiti66 the issue isn’t a loss of “forest acres” the problem is that much of the forest is also barren. Clearcuts used to be a smorgasbord for deer in a sort of food dessert. The loss is really the clearcut, what used to be a productive habitat break and sort of food plot spread throughout much less productive timber is now barren. Not of trees, but of the Forbes and things that used to grow in them traditionally.

What percentage of the forest is in young succession versus 25 years ago? Are there as many clear cuts as there used to be?

 

[slick]

I'm not preaching deer antlers, either. I'm talking deer numbers, as well.

Doe survival and Fawn survival drive populations, shooting that buck had no ill effect on the overall herd health in that area.

 

[ceng]

Interestingly enough and you’d have to double check this with maps etc. I think from like 30 years ago to 15ish years ago I think most was selective harvest. I think there are more clear cuts now than when I was a kid at least that’s my perception. I think some law may have changed and yarder logging clear cuts has been growing substantially. I wonder how good the archived maps of google earth are for this sort of thing? I have a buddy who did timber management for the forest service for 30 some odd years I’ll try and ask him sometime.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

I can't check it. But, I really don't need to in order to tell you what I do know. If the cuts are being converted to coniferous species versus a intermix, that is why the herbicides are being used. If the stands were traditionally coniferous, the nerbicides are being used to ensure they stay that way. To eliminate the natural deciduous regen. It far out competes planted "pine" species. Or, any species that is growing from a seed sprout. Controlled burns use to serve the seeding and preparation purpose. This is just a lot more effective at it in comparison.





Coniferous only cuts do not get select cut very often. Never have unless it was a planted rotation that needed thinned. Also, If the forest service was doing the sale set ups, I can most assure you that clear cutting was indeed more prevalent 30 years ago. In the right forests, that is mandatory. So, it isn't a knock. But, they clear cut every timber sale here when a select cut would have been more appropriate. It was simply an agency wide practice. That has changed here.





The governing agency should have the info you request.

 

[Wapiti66]

In response to wapiti66 the issue isn’t a loss of “forest acres” the problem is that much of the forest is also barren. Clearcuts used to be a smorgasbord for deer in a sort of food dessert. The loss is really the clearcut, what used to be a productive habitat break and sort of food plot spread throughout much less productive timber is now barren. Not of trees, but of the Forbes and things that used to grow in them traditionally.

I understand its not a loss of forest acres that's the issue. I was asking if there was a food source underneath all the timber before its cut, which I assumed was no. You confirmed it is mostly barren. So my point is that they aren't losing any EXISTING food source because it simply wasn't there to begin with. The loss is the timber. It sounds like maybe they used to GAIN a food source after the clearcut was done, but now that is suppressed for a few years to allow trees to get established again. In short, they aren't losing anything that existed for them to eat before, they just aren't gaining a new source of food behind the timber right away. I wanted to clarify if they were actually losing an existing food source, which it sounds like no. Thanks.

 

[blackdog]

I don't think anyone is trying to imply that herbicides are the sole reason for a drop in blacktail numbers. To argue that it is would be foolish. To argue that it doesn't contribute, IMO, is equally as foolish.

One poster mentioned that there's browse in every clearcut he's been in that's been sprayed. Sure, a limited amount will still grow in spots, but not anywhere near the amount of browse will be present in sprayed cuts than if that cut wasn't sprayed. And as such, that cut that has been sprayed has a much more limited capacity to support animals that rely on that browse, like blacktails.

Another poster keeps pointing to these supposed 'boom and bust' cycles in deer populations like they're similar to anadromous fish runs. I live near and hunt the Northern Oregon Coast frequently. I'd love to see any data that points out any boom cycle over the last 40 years. It simply isn't there. Populations in this area are in the tank and have only been getting worse during my whole life. Habitat, predators, and human populations - all contribute significantly on this in my best estimate.

I also have to smirk at the talk that glyphosate is completely healthy. If that's the case, why are there so many precautions around it's use - dont get it on your skin, don't breath it, don't consume it, don't let it run off into any water sources, etc, etc.???? I imagine in the next 30-40 years we'll really start to learn about the long term harmful effects of it that are only speculated about now. Perhaps as more people like Dewayne Johnson step forward and dent the pocketbook of Bayer, more truths will come out.

 

[Copen1822]

Good grief sometimes this place drives me nuts!

Seems like a few people posting here may actually be foresters posting facts and yet everyone else keeps harping on about their emotional issues with herbicides and clear cuts. Do you want facts from people knowledgeable about forestry or do you want to be upset with the evil timber companies?

You noticed a lack of browse in a clear cut on a TOUR?
Did you take plots? How much of the cut did you look at? What are they regenerating? Was it planting or natural regeneration? Conversion? Do you know what's palatable browse for the area? What's the overall management plan for the area?

Awful lot of talk about glyphosate, is that what was sprayed?

I understand how it could be concerning and we should all be interested in how natural lands are being managed, especially public lands, but I think you're WAY off base.

I've been on 100's of clear cuts, both with herbicide use and without, and there isn't any shortage of deer habitat created in the process. The opposite is much much worse!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[WV Mountaineer]

Good grief sometimes this place drives me nuts!

Seems like a few people posting here may actually be foresters posting facts and yet everyone else keeps harping on about their emotional issues with herbicides and clear cuts. Do you want facts from people knowledgeable about forestry or do you want to be upset with the evil timber companies?

You noticed a lack of browse in a clear cut on a TOUR?
Did you take plots? How much of the cut did you look at? What are they regenerating? Was it planting or natural regeneration? Conversion? Do you know what's palatable browse for the area? What's the overall management plan for the area?

Awful lot of talk about glyphosate, is that what was sprayed?

I understand how it could be concerning and we should all be interested in how natural lands are being managed, especially public lands, but I think you're WAY off base.

I've been on 100's of clear cuts, both with herbicide use and without, and there isn't any shortage of deer habitat created in the process. The opposite is much much worse!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Boom! The second mic drop of the thread.



The one thing that will never change is there are two professions in this country where the on lookers know more then the professionals. That is Wildlife Management and Forest Management. IT will likely never change either. Because us foresters are employed by the evil Koch Brother types and, wildlife managers are influenced by the insurance commissions.

 

[N2TRKYS]

I've sprayed several thousand acres over 5 states. Haven't heard of a deer decline in any of those areas.

Maybe the California deer aren't as robust. Lol

 

[Beendare]

I found shocking info where have all of the people gone? /grin

Not only are the deer disappearing...but some people too. /grin

Sorry, in advance.......A bit of a parody on the OPs thread title- (all in jest)

Oregon hunter kills advancing mtn lion- link
Hunter kills advancing cougar near Mount Hood | OregonLive.com

Hat tip to my Oregon buddy Javan for sending this over. i didn't realize there have been 2 people killed this year already by lions in Oregon??????

A search shows multiple articles on lions/attacks in Oregon.

 

[Takem]

Not only are the deer disappearing...but some people too. /grin

Sorry, in advance.......A bit of a parody on the OPs thread title- (all in jest)

Oregon hunter kills advancing mtn lion- link
Hunter kills advancing cougar near Mount Hood | OregonLive.com

Hat tip to my Oregon buddy Javan for sending this over. i didn't realize there have been 2 people killed this year already by lions in Oregon??????

A search shows multiple articles on lions/attacks in Oregon.

One killed n Washington and one in Oregon. Thanks for sharing. It's pretty cool he had a tag and can keep the lion.