I dont understand the hostility towards wolf reintroduction in Colorado

[Jake Larsen]

Thanks for the laugh. Wow.

Take a trip into the Lolo zone between ID and MT and report back on your findings. From world class elk hunting to less than 1/10th the population in 20 years.

How about the greater Yellowstone herd in SW Montana…There are entire units that have gone from world famous for elk, some of the best OTC elk hunting ever, to extremely limited special draw and a handful of youth tags.


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[Koda_]

After stewing on it I fall into the slightly anti wolf crowd. Though I am not in favor of the method or means of (re)introduction. I don't think wolves are completely terrible. I think it would have been better to allow them to continue to trickle into CO and implement a robust managment plan that takes into account multiple perspectives.

Thats how they came into Oregon, one or two migrated in from Idaho. Slowly they grew into a pack, and now we have over 250 if I recall. Trust me Oregons management plan is failing, and its not being managed from a hunting or herd health or ranching perspectives thats been shared here. Its a mess. Oregon is a good example of how a natural "trickle" into the sate example how it will play out.

 

[ianpadron]

How about the greater Yellowstone herd in SW Montana…There are entire units that have gone from world famous for elk, some of the best OTC elk hunting ever, to extremely limited special draw and a handful of youth tags.


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Yep the list is long. If you really want to feel bad look at the last 5 years of spring surveys in the Bob Marshall, and compare to the 70s and 80s.

Will make you cry.

At first I thought OP was trolling but it appears he's serious... you can lead a horse to water I guess

 

[Loo.wii]

Yep the list is long. If you really want to feel bad look at the last 5 years of spring surveys in the Bob Marshall, and compare to the 70s and 80s.

Will make you cry.

At first I thought OP was trolling but it appears he's serious... you can lead a horse to water I guess

i have been lead to the proverbial water

 

[ianpadron]

i have been lead to the proverbial water

I respect anyone with an open mind in 2024.

I used to be anti-predator hunting lol, now it's one of my favorite things.

I enjoy seeing wolves, bears, kitties on the landscape almost as much as I enjoy having tags for all 3 in my pocket every fall.

 

[Cameron.25]

I respect anyone with an open mind in 2024.

I used to be anti-predator hunting lol, now it's one of my favorite things.

I enjoy seeing wolves, bears, kitties on the landscape almost as much as I enjoy having tags for all 3 in my pocket every fall.

Same kinda. Dont think i was ever anti predator hunting just had no interest initially. Love hunting bears now and I will definitely be shooting a wolf should i see one during my idaho deer hunt this fall

 

[spike camp]

i have been lead to the proverbial water

You’ve maintained your composure, that is a good thing.
I’m glad this thread has encouraged you to understand the complexity of the situation.

That said, the wolves taking food off my plate, is the least of my concern, and seems to be at the forefront of yours.

I’ve been a resident of Colorado since 1995, and I started bowhunting elk in 1996.

Wolves are not the problem.
It’s the current system and state of affairs that are the problem.

We can’t win against what has become the norm in Colorado.
It’s an erosion of rights, privileges and freedoms because the people that hate us are powerful, wealthy and smart and incredibly motivated to destroy what they don’t understand.

 

[PNW bow hunter]

I'll try to make this short. As I mentioned in my original comment, I am not an expert so I a speaking broadly when I share my opinions and perspectives. I didn't expect this thread to blowup as much as it did, and it really did show me the good, bad and ugly of the Rokslide community which i am very fond of. That being said, I didn't have the time to go through and read every article linked or dive into the depths of the internet to find what there was.

To me the most compelling parts of the anti wolf argument stem from the perspective that a wolf is a human competition for food. Taking this idea and running with it a bit more, i would estimate that the people who share this perspective use or plan to use or would like to use hunting as their primary source of meat. So maintaining this logic, why would you introduce competition that is quite literally taking food off of your plate? In most cases the data reflects that when wolves come into an area hunter success goes down.

This argument alone has had a major influence on my opinion.

In addition to the aforementioned, the anecdotes shared by those of you who are closer to the ranching community about the ineffectiveness of the "reimbursement" programs in various states opened my eyes quite a bit. In hindsight it should have been obvious because having worked for the gov in various capacities I personally know that getting what you need when you need it is like banging your head against a brick wall. These anecdotes shared the fact that cows grazing on public land aren't baby sat throughout the season and so a rancher might be down X number of animals and not know it for weeks of months, making it even more difficult to prove to the governing parties that an animal was a victim of predation.

The next issue would be the seemingly shady way that the wolves were introduced in CO. particularly the fact that there very likely were already wolves in the state and the state felt it necessary to add more instead of allowing wolves to continue to naturally filter south as they likely wood. The fact that there is NO management plan for them seems indicative that there is no desire to allow harvesting of wolves in CO ever.

After stewing on it I fall into the slightly anti wolf crowd. Though I am not in favor of the method or means of (re)introduction. I don't think wolves are completely terrible. I think it would have been better to allow them to continue to trickle into CO and implement a robust managment plan that takes into account multiple perspectives.

That being said I appreciate the love and hate that i got from the members here. The next pot I want to stir why is there so much hate for adult onset hunters among the saltier members.

P.s. I was asked and prodded about my signature. Its a joke that plays on 2 things, one being the fact that I am almost certainly the only Haitian born person on this site. On the other hand I knew from the second I made my account I knew there would be very little overlap in what I and most of the members here agree on besides hunting = good. There are some here who can't take a joke but thats okay.

I got alot out of this discussion.

Theres so much more to unpack but I have to go do nerd things now.

YES!! SHORT !!

It EXTREMELY rare to ever read on a forum that someone has had their mind changed in a discussion like this.

Refreshing!

I think your still missing the point that pretty much all the people you think are “anti wolf” have been trying to make.

THE PEOPLE/GROUPS FIGHTING FOR WOLF REINTRODUCTIONS WILL FIGHT ANY AND ALL MANAGEMENT

The management part is a pipe dream in most places, and they fight tooth and nail in court in states that do want to manage them.

From what you have written, your probably thinking more in line with a huge majority on this subject at this point.


Get out there and enjoy some elk hu ting now in Colorado.

In 10-12 years it will be very different than this year.

 

[Jake Larsen]

It EXTREMELY rare to ever read on a forum that someone has had their mind changed in a discussion like this.

Refreshing!

I think your still missing the point that pretty much all the people you think are “anti wolf” have been trying to make.

THE PEOPLE/GROUPS FIGHTING FOR WOLF REINTRODUCTIONS WILL FIGHT ANY AND ALL MANAGEMENT

The management part is a pipe dream in most places, and they fight tooth and nail in court in states that do want to manage them.

From what you have written, your probably thinking more in line with a huge majority on this subject at this point.


Get out there and enjoy some elk hu ting now in Colorado.

In 10-12 years it will be very different than this year.

Exactly. Most people aren’t “anti wolf” we’re anti the REALITY of how wolf reintroduction goes down.


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[Loo.wii]

You’ve maintained your composure, that is a good thing.
I’m glad this thread has encouraged you to understand the complexity of the situation.

That said, the wolves taking food off my plate, is the least of my concern, and seems to be at the forefront of yours.

I’ve been a resident of Colorado since 1995, and I started bowhunting elk in 1996.

Wolves are not the problem.
It’s the current system and state of affairs that are the problem.

We can’t win against what has become the norm in Colorado.
It’s an erosion of rights, privileges and freedoms because the people that hate us are powerful, wealthy and smart and incredibly motivated to destroy what they don’t understand.

The Idea isn’t necessarily on the forefront but when looking at things from that lens the sentiment makes more sense .

 

[DmrbigEshotT]

Obviously the OP has done one sided “research” prior to their post.

One very easy example on why this was not a good idea is the significant decline in elk calf recruitment in SW Colorado. Biologists are having a hard time pinpointing what the primary cause is (or they just don’t want to say too much non-hunter human pressure 24/7, 365).

What do you think will happen to calf recruitment and overall population numbers when wolves move into that part of the state faster than they otherwise would have naturally?!


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[BeastOfTheTrees]

Big coyotes always get shot at on a hunting trip as far as I’m concerned…..

 

[bayoublaster7527]

I think the salient point for the OP is that most Roksliders are not anti-wolf, they are just pro-management, specifically science-based wildlife management. I applaud the OP for having an open mind and hanging in there for the discussion. We need much more of this if hunting is to survive in Colorado.

 

[Loo.wii]

It EXTREMELY rare to ever read on a forum that someone has had their mind changed in a discussion like this.

Refreshing!

I think your still missing the point that pretty much all the people you think are “anti wolf” have been trying to make.

THE PEOPLE/GROUPS FIGHTING FOR WOLF REINTRODUCTIONS WILL FIGHT ANY AND ALL MANAGEMENT

The management part is a pipe dream in most places, and they fight tooth and nail in court in states that do want to manage them.

From what you have written, your probably thinking more in line with a huge majority on this subject at this point.


Get out there and enjoy some elk hu ting now in Colorado.

In 10-12 years it will be very different than this year.

Im not missing that part. My comments above are not indicative of my full thoughts. just a snapshot in time. that being said. Its blatantly obvious that there is a slim chance will come in anyway that will include hunters. if anything the state will pay someone to do the management.

 

[Loo.wii]

Big coyotes always get shot at on a hunting trip as far as I’m concerned…..

what big coyotes...... ?

 

[johnnycake]

Wolves are far from the sole culprit. That study (from my quick scan) does indicate brain worm being a higher cause of mortality for adult moose.

My recollection is the calf mortality and poor calf recruitment which seems to a major factor in the population #'s was primarily attributable to predation by wolves AND bears. My understanding is that is how predators primarily impact ungulate populations. Also, i don't know if moose are succumbing to these harsh winters like deer have been but predator stress has to have a significant effect on survival through rough winters.

To get a better view of the impacts of wolves on calf mortality, look at overall moose calf mortality rates from states with wolves and without. Across the board calf mortality rates for moose are high, ~60-80%, and predation is the leading cause of death for calves. That is true for states with wolves and states without. There are quite a few studies out there on this from New England, to the Rockies, across Canada, and into Alaska. This is likely why moose have evolved to have twins and triplets frequently--as long as the cow's body condition is good. But ticks and brain worm infections are highly correlated to poor body condition and low reproductive rates, causing more cows to have single births and also to not have calves in back to back years. And the kinds of winters that are harsh on deer rarely are bad for moose. When winters are too mild, moose suffer, and in the L48 in particular that usually leads to higher occurrences of the brain worm and tick problems.

 

[repins05]

Please keep this in perspective as well …..

Many on this forum are relying on reports and studies from our state workers. Is a wolf count of 175 in Oregon accurate? Could it be double? Triple?

A wildlife biologist I talked to in eastern Oregon last year was 22 years old. She grew up in a large city and loved her new job and the outdoors. She has never hunted. She was doing a mule deer count Dec. 2023 For the state of Oregon. Will her count be accurate? She also explained that they do a deer count in several areas and then calculate and average deer numbers for an entire unit. Is this science accurate?

A little over 10 years ago a radio collared wolf was tracked to south west Oregon. The scientific community was “ surprised“ by the findings. Jump to present, and a wolf pack has been established and labeled In the rogue unit area. Note this is Blacktail country. Getting an accurate count of anything toward the coast of Oregon is going to be difficult.

Is a study by a state led by liberal officials going to produce accurate numbers of a wolf population and predation numbers from that count.

 

[Caseknife]

There has been studies in the Blue Mtns about fawn/calf mortality and black bears had the highest predation. they will actually grid and area that is known calving ground in the spring looking for the newborns that are pretty scent free and taught to lay still. Had this happen last spring about 200 yards from our house one evening. Saw the bear after that wandering back and forth across the hillside, but of course we don't have a spring bear season any longer.

Can't find the actual law/article right now, it was in the Bugle a couple years ago but there is a federal law on the books that in essence says that if you are in a lawsuit against the government and you are found in the right, the government has to pay your legal fees. Think this came about from the Sackett vs EPA lawsuit years ago. It was meant to protect the little guy from the over reach of the federal government. Guess what, the non-profits have glommed onto this and we taxpayers pay their legal defense when they bring lawsuits against the proper predator management among other things. Something to think about.

 

[KHNC]

Here and on quite a few other public forums I've observed hostility towards the reintroduction of wolves in CO. Call me ignorant or dumb but I really dont understand the hate. I can understand the " THESE DENVER LIBTARDS WHO KNOW NOTHING GOT TO VOTE ON BLAHBLAH BLAH." perspective, but other than that I don't think its a net negative to the ecosystem, the state, ranchers, or hunters. Now I understand that there may be an argument that broadly suggests that "they're the wrong wolves" but i am not educated enough on the ecology and the actual impact of different wolf sub species on wild life or the ecosystem. If i am not mistaken, I think ranchers are reimbursed for livestock killed by wolves. If this is the case is there really a cost to the re introduction.
In the hunting perspective I also Don't think that reintroduction is negative. Multiple states have healthy wolf populations and still have healthy game populations. I imagine that a good wolf population would solve the issue of private land owners with massive swaths of land essentially having a monopoly on elk and deer in an area and capitalizing on it by charging ridiculous access fees. Broadly I think that predation by wolves on elk and deer will cause these animals to migrate in ways that are consistent with their historic patters of movement, effectively disbursing them in a way that is beneficial to your average public land hunter.

All that being said. While we are at it we should also reintroduce grizzlies to their historic range and buffalos too.

Im sure my opinion will get hated on but i hope this spurs a productive conversation that conveys nuances that I may not be aware of.


Edit.
Getting stabbed with a rusty blade by a gizz in the middle of the woods is better than getting mauled by a crack head in downtown Denver.




EDIT 2


ill add this to both sides of the thread.


I'll try to make this short. As I mentioned in my original comment, I am not an expert so I a speaking broadly when I share my opinions and perspectives. I didn't expect this thread to blowup as much as it did, and it really did show me the good, bad and ugly of the Rokslide community which i am very fond of. That being said, I didn't have the time to go through and read every article linked or dive into the depths of the internet to find what there was.

To me the most compelling parts of the anti wolf argument stem from the perspective that a wolf is a human competition for food. Taking this idea and running with it a bit more, i would estimate that the people who share this perspective use or plan to use or would like to use hunting as their primary source of meat. So maintaining this logic, why would you introduce competition that is quite literally taking food off of your plate? In most cases the data reflects that when wolves come into an area hunter success goes down.

This argument alone has had a major influence on my opinion.

In addition to the aforementioned, the anecdotes shared by those of you who are closer to the ranching community about the ineffectiveness of the "reimbursement" programs in various states opened my eyes quite a bit. In hindsight it should have been obvious because having worked for the gov in various capacities I personally know that getting what you need when you need it is like banging your head against a brick wall. These anecdotes shared the fact that cows grazing on public land aren't baby sat throughout the season and so a rancher might be down X number of animals and not know it for weeks of months, making it even more difficult to prove to the governing parties that an animal was a victim of predation.

The next issue would be the seemingly shady way that the wolves were introduced in CO. particularly the fact that there very likely were already wolves in the state and the state felt it necessary to add more instead of allowing wolves to continue to naturally filter south as they likely wood. The fact that there is NO management plan for them seems indicative that there is no desire to allow harvesting of wolves in CO ever.

After stewing on it I fall into the slightly anti wolf crowd. Though I am not in favor of the method or means of (re)introduction. I don't think wolves are completely terrible. I think it would have been better to allow them to continue to trickle into CO and implement a robust managment plan that takes into account multiple perspectives.

That being said I appreciate the love and hate that i got from the members here. The next pot I want to stir why is there so much hate for adult onset hunters among the saltier members.

P.s. I was asked and prodded about my signature. Its a joke that plays on 2 things, one being the fact that I am almost certainly the only Haitian born person on this site. On the other hand I knew from the second I made my account I knew there would be very little overlap in what I and most of the members here agree on besides hunting = good. There are some here who can't take a joke but thats okay.

I got alot out of this discussion.

Theres so much more to unpack but I have to go do nerd things now.

YES!! SHORT !!

I didnt even bother to read your novel about wolf haters. I just came here to laugh at it. F the wolves and the people in CO that voted them in.

 

[Caseknife]

Found the article, https://www.rmef.org/elk-network/equal-access-to-injustice/