How many firemen/paramedics does it take..

[Mike7]

I don't think anyone is saying that the "potential" inefficient use of tax dollars has anything to do with first responders, but rather a "possible" lack of creative solutions in some settings, solutions which could save money while maybe still getting the job done without jeopardizing safety.

For routine daily medical calls which make up the vast majority for some dept's, maybe a 3 man crew (1 paramedic) in a $30,000 van assisting the private contractor ambulance as needed (with the additional crew members manning the engine back at the station) rather than putting all of the miles on a ladder truck, which costs at least 10x's as much to maintain and replace?

In most doctor's offices for example, no more than 4 people including the patient can usually fit in the room, and you have a clear history over the phone at dispatch that the ladder truck is not needed.

I am guessing that there are other factors to consider by fire dept admins, but I can also see how the tax payer finds this potentially very wasteful when voting on bonds.

 

[Travis Bertrand]

It’s been pretty much covered. In our city, our fire engines are all 4 man minimum staffing. We don’t split up an engine because “we don’t need that many people on this call”. We always stay together as a crew. This is for several reasons, you may be need all hands on deck on a moments notice on any call. We also stay together of there is a fire call to and from a medical call. Some medical calls are overkill, some aren’t. With the 2-3 people on an ambulance that respond with the fire engine, there is always 6-7 on scene. And when life and death is on the line, that is bare minimum of people required to save a life. You need Atleast 10 people too when running a cardiac arrest call and believe me, dispatch does not get all of the information on a call. There’s been plenty of times when it comes in as a victim of a fall or unknown and it turns out to be cardiac arrest. So if that is my relative in the other room in the office, I’m glad a 4 man engine company and an ambulance crew is working together no matter the situation. Better to have too many than not enough! Oh and if your city council didn’t think it was important, believe me, there wouldn’t be that many people on scene. Does any of this make sense?


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[Travis Bertrand]

I don't think anyone is saying that the "potential" inefficient use of tax dollars has anything to do with first responders, but rather a "possible" lack of creative solutions in some settings, solutions which could save money while maybe still getting the job done without jeopardizing safety.

For routine daily medical calls which make up the vast majority for some dept's, maybe a 3 man crew (1 paramedic) in a $30,000 van assisting the private contractor ambulance as needed (with the additional crew members manning the engine back at the station) rather than putting all of the miles on a ladder truck, which costs at least 10x's as much to maintain and replace?

In most doctor's offices for example, no more than 4 people including the patient can usually fit in the room, and you have a clear history over the phone at dispatch that the ladder truck is not needed.

I am guessing that there are other factors to consider by fire dept admins, but I can also see how the tax payer finds this potentially very wasteful when voting on bonds.

You are right to a point. A lot of cities including mine utilize a 2 man rescue which take Medical calls in place of busy engine and truck companies. It does save wear and tear.


Councils and fire admin is always trying to find ways to become more efficient but the harsh reality is that first responders are doing more with less. That is the easiest solution from the powers above. A lot of departments are running more calls with the same amount of personnel they had 10 years ago in today’s world.


Also, if the room is too small and we need more people on the job, we either adapt and overcome or move the patient. Whatever will be the best outcome for the patient.

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[eamyrick]

I had some crazy on a medical call try to whip my ass when I was a young patrol officer. I was sure happy to see all the fire fighters that showed up with EMS. (EMS bless them are usually not into the rough stuff around here). It can also be a pain in the ass to safely carry someone out of a tight spot who is in a medical emergency. (Fire is often an invaluable resource for this)

Other than that imagine how much the economy would sink if hose draggers weren’t eating 1/4 of the GDP in ice cream—and who would be play online video games with all the kids staying up all night?

 

[Loebs]

First of all generalized statements like this just start an argument. I'm a Lieutenant on a tower truck which is ALS. Our rescue that runs with us out of my station is also ALS. We show up with 6 firefighters on every ALS call. While you think this may be overkill, I can assure you that it is not. Many times the dispatch information is wrong or lacks enough details to make the call a single unit response. Just yesterday we received a call for a seizure, however when we arrived on scene CPR was in progress as the patient had a cardiac event. Luckily we had the entire crew of 6 and were able to get a rythem and respitory drive back. Latter that day the patient was sitting upright and talking. I do not believe that we would have had a positive outcome with a reduced crew. There are multiple key treatments and interventions all happening at the same time. You need your crew at full strength to do all this. I'll leave you with this thought, what would you want to respond to your family members and loved ones? The bare minimum or enough to the job?

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[timbrhuntr]

"Any task performed by government employees usually takes 2-3x the number of people it would take if the task was performed by private enterprise. "

I love it when people make comments like this ! Go ask some of the people who elected to have private FD's feel about private doing it better. Somethings will always be performed better by Government whether you like it or not. We privatized our snow removal on our highways here. Guess what they weren't clearing some roads in high traffic areas and know what the private company said when asked about this dangerous situation. They didn't have enough manpower to keep up so decided to not fulfill their obligation and let the Government sue them if they wanted. Well they have the government and us taxpayers over a barrel because the government laid off all the employees and sold all their equipment cheap to the private job who would do it better and cheaper lol

 

[Billinsd]

I talked to my paramedic friend and he repeated what a bunch of you have said. According to my friend they are greatly erroring on the side of caution. I'm not crazy about it, but I'm good with it. Thanks all for the education!!!! Oh, and thanks for doing what you do, I truly appreciate it!!! Bill

 

[Billinsd]

First of all generalized statements like this just start an argument. I'm a Lieutenant on a tower truck which is ALS. Our rescue that runs with us out of my station is also ALS. We show up with 6 firefighters on every ALS call. While you think this may be overkill, I can assure you that it is not. Many times the dispatch information is wrong or lacks enough details to make the call a single unit response. Just yesterday we received a call for a seizure, however when we arrived on scene CPR was in progress as the patient had a cardiac event. Luckily we had the entire crew of 6 and were able to get a rythem and respitory drive back. Latter that day the patient was sitting upright and talking. I do not believe that we would have had a positive outcome with a reduced crew. There are multiple key treatments and interventions all happening at the same time. You need your crew at full strength to do all this. I'll leave you with this thought, what would you want to respond to your family members and loved ones? The bare minimum or enough to the job?

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I was ignorant about it and now you have educated me. Thanks!!

 

[JWP58]

Same crap comes up when people lose their mind over 2 or three patrol cars on a traffic stop. Sometimes its needed, end of story.

 

[Bobbyboe]

I'm glad you looked into it. As a first responder myself, initial comments like yours rub me wrong. Thanks for following up.

In reality, one thing we as first responders can do a better job of, is educating the public about why we do what we do. Have a good day.

 

[mrbillbrown]

OK, if 12 guys show up wouldn't some leave, seeing 3 or 4 got it covered? What about if someone across town needs help and there are 12 paramedics in an apartment or small doctors office? Seems like Monty Python and the machine that goes ping. How many firemen can actually work on a person at one time or do they rotate?

When you’re having an emergency do you want the “bare minimum it takes” to render your care? Or would you like the most optimal number of responders with as much medical ability as God or money can find coming to you? Just asking...

But for conversations sake regarding your question....

You’ll have to do a google search for Pit Crew CPR to get the “long version” but the short version consists of each member having Ana signed role during a cardiac arrest. Chest compressors are switched every minute t maintain the freshest most effective cardiac chest compressions available. With 6 position roles covered during an arrest, compressors rotting every minute, a person to liaison and gather information from the bystanders, and a person or two preparing the cot and equipment for transport for the scene you can’t have enough hands presen to give someone the best chance for revival and survival. The rest is up to the almighty himself.

Sure, if we arrive on scene and find there’s no need for so many responders we start sending people back to rigs and their respective stations. Similarly, we’re not the only 2 responding rigs in town. With 150 uniformed members at 5 stations covering 100 sq miles we almost always have FF’s ready to respond to the next call for help.

 

[Clearedhot1]

What do firemen and prostitutes have in common?


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[rcfireninja]

What do firemen and prostitutes have in common?


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They can both kick your a$$!


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[Travis Bertrand]

What do firemen and prostitutes have in common?


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Still holding my breath.


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[JWP58]

I'm guessing they both get to lay down on the job. But hookers usually dont play too much xbox..or have all their teeth.

 

[Btaylor]

Are you really concerned about the number of responders? Would you rather they send 2, and upon arrival summon more help? What if your wife or your kid was having a medical emergency and only 2 first responders showed, only to have to call for more help..... What if in that time waiting for help you wife or your kid died? I cant believe anyone is questioning this, come on man.

This post reminds me of people bitching/questioning the Police too. If you think you know better, how about you become a first responder. There's plenty of openings! Under paid and under appreciated.

7 showed up at my parents house on 1/9 and got my mother to the hospital just a bit before she coded twice. She is having bypass surgery in the morning because they have excellent first responders who got her to the hospital otherwise I would have already had a funeral. When you time of need comes so will they. If it is 3 or 33 be damn thankful for them.

 

[three5x5s]

What do firemen and prostitutes have in common?


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Just maybe they are both human beings that have the same wants and needs that we do..

 

[Clearedhot1]

I'm guessing they both get to lay down on the job. But hookers usually dont play too much xbox..or have all their teeth.

Correct! Both make money by laying on their backs.

Yes I’m just jealous....much appreciation and respect to the boys in red.


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