How important (or not) is it to have a Rem 700 action trued and(or?) blueprinted?

[NorthIdahoDude]

For what it's worth...

I've trued LOTS of 700 actions.
For whatever reason, the manufacture process makes them banana shaped, the top seems to draw together. Some a little, some a lot causing the lug abutments to be off axis.
The face of the receiver is cut off with a wheel and I've never seen one that didn't need faced off while I was at it. usually needing .001"-.002" or more.

The bolt lugs are usually off by .001" also one to the other. The bottom lug usually closer to the abutment.

The stacked tolerances causes the top lug to have a gap of .002"-.004", plus that receiver face...

Fixing all that never makes it shoot worse...

Resetting the headspace with a thicker ground lug, going through the bolt/firing pin, trueing the receiver threads and lapping the barrel will usually make a factory gun shoot impressively well.

But...
After the 700 supply of actions dried up, lots of other avenues for good actions became the norm.

I will say, the new actions are MUCH better than the old ones so far.

After all that, resetting the bolt handle for proper primary extraction is usually necessary as well.

So, the cost may or may not be worth it to some.

So, I'm 100% with you on all the tolerances you're outlining here and how bad those are/nobody would consider accepting them for a bench gun or the like. But what I'm asking is, will fixing all that contribute to accuracy to a degree that I might expect a gun would go from say a 2MOA to 3/4 MOA after the fixes? It's one thing to observe 'wow, that was .003 out of spec, which is insanely bad, so I fixed it', and different thing to observe 'that was .003 out of spec, so I fixed it, and nothing else, and after that the gun shot vastly better'.

 

[Libtard McSocalist]

The most accurate 700 I’ve had wasn’t trued up. It absolutely hammered. The second barrel that went on did not do nearly as well as the first. I dont attitude that to the action.

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

You say it's bedded to a stock... What kind of stock and who did the bedding? What kind of torque are you running on the action screws? I have a new Georgia production 700 in .223 with the sporter barrel. I never shot it the factory stock, it immediately went into a Bell and Carlson stock that I bedded and free floated. It was never really better than around MOA for five shots, probably around 1.25", and that's trying 25 different factory loads. I tried torque between 55-65 in lbs (B&C spec is 65 in lbs) but made no difference. Usable but a bit disappointing for a 223. I was going to sell it, so I put it back in the factory plastic stock with tip pressure and torqued to 35 inch pounds. I decided to go shoot it again for giggles, the very first five round group with ADI 55 grain blitzking went into a dime. So did the second and the third. In the Bell and Carlson stock, it never shot that better than an inch. Try to couple of other factory loads for curiosity and it also shot those much better as well. That rifle is no longer for sale.

That's a long winded way of saying make sure that you're bedding is stress-free and play with the torque values on the action screws to see if things improve.

It's a SPS stock with Magpul Hunter/AICS bottom metal. Barrel channel was sanded out significantly for the Criterion contour (their idea of 'sporter' is WAY thicker than Remington's idea of a "Magnum" profile).

I did the bedding myself - not my first rodeo with that sort of work. I use JB Weld WaterWeld these days because the putty is just soooo nice to work with compared to more liquid-y options. Round 1, I fill in the area around where the front action screw goes in with about how much putty it looks like will be 'right' once the action squishes down into it. I spray the action lightly with Hornady OneShot and tape up the barrel just ahead of the action with several layers of masking tape so it centers in the barrel channel and floats once the tape is removed. Then I gently screw the action down into the putty using only the front action screw till it's just snugged down enough to sit nicely/as it should in the stock, let it sit for 15-20 mins, then pop the action and let cure for a few days. On most guns, this leaves the rear tang a hair raised, so I'll do a repeat of the above and bed the tang (again, using the front action screw only). If the rear tang makes nice even contact after round 1 (which it did in this case), I don't usually bed the tang.

I run my action screw torque right at 45-48 lbs.

 

[4th_point]

Do you have another stock or chassis to try? I'm guessing not?

And you trust the gunsmith or have some history with him? Did he at least do a cursory inspection before agreeing to forgo action work?

Last, if the barrel was neglected, how bad was the bolt, firing pin, and spring?

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

Do you have another stock or chassis to try? I'm guessing not?

And you trust the gunsmith or have some history with him? Did he at least do a cursory inspection before agreeing to forgo action work?

Last, if the barrel was neglected, how bad was the bolt, firing pin, and spring?

I have a couple of other R700 stocks, but none I could try without doing a fair amount of barrel channel sanding to accommodate the barrel (tbh - it is a pet peeve that like 98% of barrel makers sell 'Sporter' barrels that are not even vaguely close to an OEM Sporter contour for the guns they are intended for).

100% trust of the gunsmith - I won't mention his name here as he doesn't deserve to get associated with this situation, but he is well known and does top shelf work. I was there and watched when he did the barrel swap, and yes, he pulled the old one and checked everything over (including disassembling the bolt/pin/etc) before saying (in summary/paraphrase) that he thought that for a gun I wasn't trying to make a bench gun out of, his opinion was that it would work out fine to just spin the new barrel on and rock it. He even talked me out of paying him to put a thicker recoil lug on it, saying if we weren't going to do the full-meal-deal on the action, that a recoil lug by itself wouldn't likely make any real difference.

As far as the bolt and such goes - I get super consistent dimples on my primers, so I'm not believing that it's some kind of ignition problem, and putting a little perm-marker on the lugs and running the bolt, it looks like both sides are making contact (one a bit more heavily than the other, to be fair).

The action itself was in pretty pristine shape when I got it, as was the outside of the factory barrel; it was only the inside of the barrel that was neglected.

 

[Chris in TN]

There's no reason for me to repeat what has been said about 700 actions in general here but I will say that I have seen firsthand a 700 shoot notably better after swapping the FP spring and cleaning several decades' worth of pickup truck back seat dust out of the inside of the bolt.

If you have the basic tools to do it, swapping the spring is no big deal.

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

There's no reason for me to repeat what has been said about 700 actions in general here but I will say that I have seen firsthand a 700 shoot notably better after swapping the FP spring and cleaning several decades' worth of pickup truck back seat dust out of the inside of the bolt.

If you have the basic tools to do it, swapping the spring is no big deal.

1.66 MOA to 1 MOA better?

 

[Chris in TN]

1.66 MOA to 1 MOA better?

Like everything else, it depends.

The worst 700 ever made would probably benefit a lot from a full blueprint. The ones being made now, I don't personally suspect a blueprint is worth it at all for a hunting rifle, based on what I've heard online from multiple people now (including at least one in this thread) about their current production tolerances. They might need a bolt handle reweld, but that's it. In a similar fashion, a 700 with a very slightly gunked up FP channel and a very slightly worn FP spring, might still shoot fine. But there's a point where that spring is going to be sluggish enough that yes, it does matter. Every FP spring is on a sliding scale between 'new and in a clean channel' and 'clogged inoperable'. I don't know where yours is. But it could certainly be clean and look fine but also be weak.

Also - if you have a 30-06 recoil level rifle that is reliably shooting 1.6-1.75 MOA ten-shot groups when you sit down at the bench and bang out the entire group over several minutes (or less) with a sporter-weight barrel profile, on a warm summer day.....ehhh, that ain't bad.

I 1000% understand the scientific angle behind shooting ten-shot groups but as a hunter I try very hard, when I'm testing a rifle, to shoot 1-2-3 shots, let it cool, then do it again. A sporter barrel, even a very good one, is very likely to have enough residual stress in it to heat up enough to walk a tiny bit after ten shots. Heck, Remington factory barrels will often do it in 2-3 shots. So, sure, shoot ten shots, but space it over a few hours.

(If you had put a pricey cut-rifled barrel on it I might view that slightly different, but I think 1.6MOA is reasonable for a sporter weight button rifled barrel).

 

[Diamondback]

My old Wally World, ADL's shoot under 1 MOA. Bell Carlson stocks, 3lb trigger, and bullet seating about 10 - 15 thousands off the lands solved a lot of issues on my Remington factory barrels. The 30-06 / 270 Win can long seat bullets just fine.

One gave me nothing but 2+" groups during ladder load development.
I then seated the bullet 15 thousands off the lands on my best ladder group and got 1/2 MOA.
Some factory barrels like the bullet right next to the lands, or they like a jump to the lands. My point is, every rifle is different on what it likes.

 

[longrangelead]

So, I'm 100% with you on all the tolerances you're outlining here and how bad those are/nobody would consider accepting them for a bench gun or the like. But what I'm asking is, will fixing all that contribute to accuracy to a degree that I might expect a gun would go from say a 2MOA to 3/4 MOA after the fixes? It's one thing to observe 'wow, that was .003 out of spec, which is insanely bad, so I fixed it', and different thing to observe 'that was .003 out of spec, so I fixed it, and nothing else, and after that the gun shot vastly better'.

definitely maybe...

I bet it does BUT, there are so many variables it may not be a huge improvement.

Things like the chamber to bore alignment and tolerances matter.

Ammo or loading method matters.

how far are you shooting?

if 300 yds or less, run it.

At some point "it's just a deer rifle" and wanting to shoot small groups intersect.

As precision and expectations go up, so does cost.

In my experience, fixing all the things, a good barrel and chamber job and finding a load it likes will put you under 1" for 10 or more pretty easy.

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

a 700 with a very slightly gunked up FP channel and a very slightly worn FP spring, might still shoot fine. But there's a point where that spring is going to be sluggish enough that yes, it does matter. Every FP spring is on a sliding scale between 'new and in a clean channel' and 'clogged inoperable'. I don't know where yours is. But it could certainly be clean and look fine but also be weak.

So on this topic - would I not see something in terms of notable ES/SD, or inconsistent dimpling, or inconsistent soot on the brass necks, or something that's otherwise observable if the pin strike is weak enough to create inconsistent ignition leading to significant accuracy degredataion?

Also - if you have a 30-06 recoil level rifle that is reliably shooting 1.6-1.75 MOA ten-shot groups when you sit down at the bench and bang out the entire group over several minutes (or less) with a sporter-weight barrel profile, on a warm summer day.....ehhh, that ain't bad.

I reach up and touch the barrel after each shot, and if it feels any hotter than 'warm', I put the gun in the rack with the bolt open and let it sit till it's near-cool to the touch. During the summer, I do good to get 10 rounds an hour down-range out of any given gun, and during colder months maybe 15, tops 20 if it's exceptionally cold that day.

All that ^ is load development and getting to know a new hunting gun - even guns that have shot great from day one, I want to shoot it enough to be very very confident in what combo of the gun+the load+me is capable of (typically 100 to 200 rounds, in both hot and cold weather, etc). Once I've established "the cone" as some of you guys call it (I usually call it 'actual accuracy'), and I'm happy with whatever that is, then for that gun, I load up 50 to 100 rounds of that exact load for it, and after that I'll do a max of 3 rounds per group and shoot 3, maybe 4 groups a year with it unless/until it does something that surprises me/makes me think something's not right.

(If you had put a pricey cut-rifled barrel on it I might view that slightly different, but I think 1.6MOA is reasonable for a sporter weight button rifled barrel).

I dunno - around 1.6MOA is what I expect from an average factory barrel like I can buy as a take-off all day on fleeBay for $100 or less. For $300-something barrels marketed as 'hand lapped' and 'match grade', I do expect better than 1.6MOA, even if they are just button rifled. But to follow that comment up - I'm still not 100% confident it's the barrel here - that's why I kicked off this thread to discuss/get outside input.

 

[Chris in TN]

To answer your question about whether a weak FP spring would manifest itself with a high SD/ES or other potential clues.....ehhh, that's hard to say. All I can really say is that a $10 spring won't hurt anything to switch.

As for the rest.....I wish I knew what to tell you. I very seriously doubt that you have an action problem. But then again I don't think your accuracy expectations from a Criterion are unreasonable.

 

[longrangelead]

So on this topic - would I not see something in terms of notable ES/SD, or inconsistent dimpling, or inconsistent soot on the brass necks, or something that's otherwise observable if the pin strike is weak enough to create inconsistent ignition leading to significant accuracy degredataion?



I reach up and touch the barrel after each shot, and if it feels any hotter than 'warm', I put the gun in the rack with the bolt open and let it sit till it's near-cool to the touch. During the summer, I do good to get 10 rounds an hour down-range out of any given gun, and during colder months maybe 15, tops 20 if it's exceptionally cold that day.

All that ^ is load development and getting to know a new hunting gun - even guns that have shot great from day one, I want to shoot it enough to be very very confident in what combo of the gun+the load+me is capable of (typically 100 to 200 rounds, in both hot and cold weather, etc). Once I've established "the cone" as some of you guys call it (I usually call it 'actual accuracy'), and I'm happy with whatever that is, then for that gun, I load up 50 to 100 rounds of that exact load for it, and after that I'll do a max of 3 rounds per group and shoot 3, maybe 4 groups a year with it unless/until it does something that surprises me/makes me think something's not right.



I dunno - around 1.6MOA is what I expect from an average factory barrel like I can buy as a take-off all day on fleeBay for $100 or less. For $300-something barrels marketed as 'hand lapped' and 'match grade', I do expect better than 1.6MOA, even if they are just button rifled. But to follow that comment up - I'm still not 100% confident it's the barrel here - that's why I kicked off this thread to discuss/get outside input.

So the idea of good shooting form is getting straight and NUETRAL behind the gun. If things are out of alignment, physics causes things to either try to align or move opposite.

If the face of the action isn't square and/or not flat, lugs don't touch, tennon threads are off axis, rail screwed down on a warped receiver, etc all induce stress into the rifle system.
Every time it goes bang, all those stresses are trying to get to neutral. They aren't going to behave exactly the same every time causing greater dispersion.

I've done button and cut rifled barrels on trued 700's. Both will shoot tiny groups when everything is right, even #1 profile sporters.

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

I bet it does BUT, there are so many variables it may not be a huge improvement.

Things like the chamber to bore alignment and tolerances matter.

Ammo or loading method matters.

how far are you shooting?

if 300 yds or less, run it.

In my experience, fixing all the things, a good barrel and chamber job and finding a load it likes will put you under 1" for 10 or more pretty easy.

Given what I can do with some of my other rifles (both current and historical), I feel like my ammo and loading techniques are reasonably up to snuff.

I had kicked off this project as my 'long range elk gun' ('long range' to me is like 500, maybe 550 yards max) . But in the meantime, I found The Load(tm) for my 7x57 which turned out to be a 175 ELD-X at 2525 FPS at around 3/4 MOA, which (according to Hornady) will expand out to somewhere around 800 yards. That wasn't my original plan for which gun to be my long range rig, but that's plenty good and who am I to argue with results? So I could just let this one ride, but I feel like this one should be better than this, so not ready to give it up just yet.

 

[FredH]

I put together a Remington 700 shouldered prefits switchbarrel rifle. I barely faced the action taking as little as possible off to make it square with the OD which the lathe jaws were holding. This rifle has 243,260,7-08 and 308 barrels and all shoot super good. If your barrel quality is good I say look elsewhere, like are the bases tight? Action bolts tight? Is your scope playing nice? You said the holes are so far off you had to use bases designed to over come this. Could your reloads be suspect? A 30-06 can be very accurate. This target was shot with a 1943 03A3 2 groove barrel that had been turned and shortened to 23".

 

[FredH]

Another thing I do with a new barrel. I know it probably isn't considered a good idea but I will often, after deep cleaning the barrel shoot it quickly until it is hot 9-12 shots. I believe this helps stress relieve the barrel. Some cartridges heat barrels quickly like a 270 does for instance and hot is 6 rounds one fired every 15 seconds in a standard sporter contour. My 7-08 mountain rifle contour was pleasingly hot after 8 shots.

 

[longrangelead]

My philosophy on a lot of things is overkill is underrated.

If I wanted a ½ moa gun, I wouldn't cry if it turned out ¼ moa right? The opposite is extremely disappointing.

At the risk of looking like a weeny wagging douche, I'll post a few groups from 700's I've done, all trued actions.


C6 barrel, 6.5 PRC, 153.5 Berger. looks like 4 but it's 5 shots.

Krieger barrel, 6.5 PRC,156 Berger. This was just confirming this barrel would still shoot after putting it on a different action.


I don't remember the barrel but, this was a pressure string using UM ammo w/156's/6.5 PRC.
¾" dot so 9 of 10 are right at ¾". I knew #10 @ 60gr was out just by the noticeably more violent recoil and confirmed with hard bolt lift.

When everything is done right, you can usually pick any intermediate load and it will shoot sub moa. if not, try a different powder or bullet until it does. if it won't after 2-3 tries, something is usually off. check everything again...

 

[Formidilosus]

Another thing I do with a new barrel. I know it probably isn't considered a good idea but I will often, after deep cleaning the barrel shoot it quickly until it is hot 9-12 shots. I believe this helps stress relieve the barrel.

So much of what you write now makes sense.