How come so much love for ELDMs and not as much love for Berger’s ?

[J.B.]

Ive shot around 20 big game from antelope to moose with a .277 170 grain elite hunter from 50-800 yards. Always great terminal performance, going off memory but probably about 50/50 on exits.
Planning to try the 147 eldm in a 6.5 prc this year, just waiting for the gun to come from the smith.
I think the “love” for the eldm, is more that its so readily available. New guy hops on, asks which bullet, and everyone knows he will have access to eldm/x and recommend accordingly. Berger, Tmk, not so much.

 

[TX_Diver]

Cost for me…. 147s were pretty cheap awhile back. I just opened my last sleeve of them today unfortunately.

I haven’t compared them at distance but at 100 10 shot groups were within .1 MOA of each other.

I’m testing a variety of stuff for my own sake currently. Maybe my next one will be eld-m vs eh at 1000yds just for fun unless anyone wants to buy 5-600 elite hunters from me first…

 

[Shortschaf]

ELDM is cheaper, precise enough and consistent enough. Great, immediate terminal performance on impact.

Berger is more expensive, normally more precise and always more consistent. Great, slightly delayed terminal performance.

+2 on these comments

I use bergers since I don't shoot enough for cost difference to matter. Ive tried both in my three barrels and the bergers always seem to shoot better anyways, so the extra cost is almost always made up in time spent in load development

 

[HuntHarder]

Ive killed plenty of critters with bergers. Also, been a part of quite a few of other's kills. I have experienced a couple bergers, penciling thru and not expanding at all. It's been very rare, but it has happened to us. We found a bullet one year in the offside hide that was still fully intact. This was more than 10 years ago and I dont recall all the specifics of yardage or impact velocity. Apart from those rare instances, the amount of internal damage on most of the kills was nothing short of fantastic.

I still shoot them in quite a few of my guns and love their accuracy. This year I plan on letting my 6.5 BB eat with the 130 vldh.

 

[HONEYBADGER]

Berger had availability issues for awhile and lots of people went another direction.

 

[lager]

I have had more bullet failures with Bergers than any other bullet I have used for hunting. The 195 EH was the worst when it came out. The 180 VLD would throw in a random pencil job once in awhile. The 300 gr EH even give us a few pencils on elk that were shot thru both shoulders, with cleaned tips. I prefer bullets with tips on them that I can trust to expand. Never had a accubond fail me.

 

[Jordan Smith]

I’ve had good experiences on game with non-tipped match bullets like Bergers and SMKs, and tipped bullets like the various AM/ELDM‘s.

Notable examples using non-tipped bullets include a 195 EOL fired from a 7WSM at 2900 fps into a broadside WT buck at ~100 m. The bullet entered shoulder, did moderate damage, was was recovered as a nicely mushroomed bullet under the offside hide. A 100 gr SMK fired from a .25-06 at 3300 fps stoned a nice BH sheep quartering toward at 400 m, showing significant damage and an exit. Those bullets haven’t always performed that way for me, however. I believe that the tip and the significant HP behind the tip help with reliable and consistent expansion using bullets like the old AM and newer ELDM.

I’ve been in on the killing of a lot of game with AM/ELDM bullets, and my experience has predominantly differed from some of the other guys here. From .243-.308”, I have not seen them to be splashy when impacting at sub-3000 fps. IME, they almost always do moderate damage and exit with a 1-1.5” hole. This is on WT, MD, elk, moose, PH, and black bear. The majority of the kills I’ve seen involved impact speeds of less than 2700 fps, which is part of the reason for the observed performance, but some have been at higher impact speeds.

One bull moose, in particular, was a slightly angled frontal shot at 30 m. The 180 ELDM from a 7WSM at ~2950 fps at the muzzle entered the brisket, penetrated 4+ feet of moose, and exited near the last ribs on the offside. The wound channel was typical - moderate damage with a 1.5” exit.

Just yesterday, I sent a 108 ELDM from a 6CM at 2860 fps at the muzzle through a blonde-phase black bear at 50 m. The bullet entered the last rib on a quartering away shot, did moderate damage throughout the wound channel, and left a 1.25” exit at the neck-shoulder junction. I found a few fragments of jacket and core at the exit wound.

My hunting partners and I have seen similar results on elk, MD, moose, etc., with the 147 ELDM launched from various 6.5 CMs at ~2650 fps, 162 AM from 7-08s at ~2650 fps and 7Mags at ~3050 fps, 208 AM from .300WM, etc.

At the end of the day, the tip and large HP contribute to consistent expansion, but a C&C bullet with no expansion control mechanism will start to behave less predictably when you get outside of its ideal impact speed window of ~1800-2800 fps.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Have you personally seen issues with hybrids? I haven’t killed enough animals yet to form my own opinion but so far so good.

Yes I’ve seen less than ideal killing wounds in animals with the berger Hybrids. I’ve also seen fantastic killing wounds from them. Same as ELDMs.

The Xs and TMKs still seem to be the most consistent across the board. Though, the aforementioned bullets will still likely kill just fine.

 

[Shortschaf]

Have you personally seen issues with hybrids? I haven’t killed enough animals yet to form my own opinion but so far so good.

The three deer I have shot in the lungs (no heart) with 140 hybrid target bullets penciled through with zero upsetting. Two required followup shots to finish in a timely manner. The third ran 100ish yards into cover and I cannot remember if it was totally dead when I found it 5ish minutes later where it got the knife.

So I would not recommend that particular hybrid target

There have been enough people speak highly of other hybrid targets that I would not condemn the whole product line. But I personally don't see the point in trying them after my experiences

 

[Ucsdryder]

Yes I’ve seen less than ideal killing wounds in animals with the berger Hybrids. I’ve also seen fantastic killing wounds from them. Same as ELDMs.

The Xs and TMKs still seem to be the most consistent across the board. Though, the aforementioned bullets will still likely kill just fine.

I went away from the X bullet due to inconsistencies. Had a box of 175 ELDX that showed big inconsistencies in overall length and CBTO. Enough to the point where you could stand them on a table and see which ones were longer and shorter. I called Hornady and they told me that was not out of the norm and would not create different POI regardless of distance. It put a bad taste in my mouth for Hornady and especially the X bullets.

The eldm have been much more consistent.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I went away from the X bullet due to inconsistencies. Had a box of 175 ELDX that showed big inconsistencies in overall length and CBTO. Enough to the point where you could stand them on a table and see which ones were longer and shorter. I called Hornady and they told me that was not out of the norm and would not create different POI regardless of distance. It put a bad taste in my mouth for Hornady and especially the X bullets.

The eldm have been much more consistent.

Did they actually shoot measurably differently?


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Ucsdryder]

Did they actually shoot measurably differently?


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

I didn’t get that far. I’ll see if I can dig up the picture.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I didn’t get that far. I’ll see if I can dig up the picture.

I asked because I was really skeptical about a batch of blemished bullets I got a few years ago. I started off trying to sort them all, then I decided to just give them a try. At 100 and 200 yards, I could not observe a difference on paper. They printed 20 shot groups at about .9 MOA from a bipod with my fist under the buttstock. I killed ground hogs with them at ranges up to approximately 300 yards. Obviously not every batch will work out that way, but the proof of the pudding is in the cake.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I went away from the X bullet due to inconsistencies. Had a box of 175 ELDX that showed big inconsistencies in overall length and CBTO. Enough to the point where you could stand them on a table and see which ones were longer and shorter. I called Hornady and they told me that was not out of the norm and would not create different POI regardless of distance. It put a bad taste in my mouth for Hornady and especially the X bullets.

The eldm have been much more consistent.

That’s a bummer. 175 ELDXs are one of the most consistent killing bullets I’ve seen personally. Around 60 animals from 7MAG, 7SAUM, and 28 Nosler.

 

[Lou270]

I have used 140 6.5 130, 170 .277 and 168 7mm hunting Bergers a good bit. Never used a target variety as they have thicker jackets. No issues with the hunting variety. They have done pretty much what Berger said they do which is go in several inches and come apart. I had one 140 on a 6.5 go in a MD and come apart (as designed) but no or minimal damage to offside lung. A fragment did hit the spine and drop the deer but it was alive and trying to go (which I did not know until got up to it as it rolled down into drainage ditch out of sight). Other than that no issues. That said, they do not exit often. Again, not expecting them too so don’t used them as a general purpose hunting bullet as I want blood trails if possible but like the higher BC and consistent accuracy when in open country

Lou

 

[wind gypsy]

Berger had availability issues for awhile and lots of people went another direction.

Still does. If anyone has a line on 144 LRHTs, please share the wealth!

Edit: got feedback this AM that they are currently manufacturing these so should be hitting distributers soon. Eurooptic has backorder available for 20% off MSRP.

 

[solarshooter]

I've killed a whopping 1 animal (muley) with a berger. Worked well.

Reported terminal performance - Long necks and more inconsistent results is what keeps me from using em more. Especially in 6mm - seen a handful of discouraging reports on the 108 EH which otherwise is an attractive bullet.

I primarily shoot bergers in target guns still.

I personally had great success with this bullet. Almost too much damage, and penetrated frontal on an elk no problem.

 

[Timjohnson11]

I've killed a whopping 1 animal (muley) with a berger. Worked well.

Reported terminal performance - Long necks and more inconsistent results is what keeps me from using em more. Especially in 6mm - seen a handful of discouraging reports on the 108 EH which otherwise is an attractive bullet.

I primarily shoot bergers in target guns still.

I've exclusively used this exact bullet the past two seasons with great success. 3 cow elk and 2 mule deer between myself and family members, everything was essentially dead right there.. From 40 yards to ~600.. Mostly gutless on the extraction so didn't inspect all the wound channels but the ones I did were devestating.. One instance in particular that stood out was a cow elk that I took frontal at ~40 yards. She dropped in her tracks and there was tissue trauma all the way back to the rear quarters when quartering her out...

I've yet to have a Berger fail me on a dozen plus elk/mule deer, including the 108 EH, the 140 EH, and the 156 EOL.. I'm not a reloader and have found Berger's Factory Loaded Elite Hunter Ammo to be signficantly higher quality than anything I can get from Hornady, or really any factory ammo provider to be frank. Lapua brass, ridiclously low deviation across both rounds and lots, and sub $40 for 6CM if you keep you eyes out for deals. This ammo shots lights out of my M3 Slam whereas every lot of Precision Match and Precision Hunter I've ever thrown at it were erratic at best.. Combine that with my results with their bullets and I'll keep reaching for Bergers until something shows me otherwise..

 

[TradLife406]

I really liked how Bergers did on WT in my 6.5 PRC and creed.
The 156 Berger in the PRC going 3k was awesome. My buck was dead inside a second or two at 750.

They seemed to go in and explode as advertised.

But I'm going to have the kid shoot 140 eldms in her Creed. They just shoot great out of her picky Sog across barrel. Though the 135 classic hunters do ok the eldm has better BC.


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[huntnful]

This was a pressure test across 5 grains of powder and about a 150fps span.

180 ELDM on the left & 180 Berger Hybrid on the right. They’d both kill, but damn those hybrids always shoot like a MF